new pick up need some advice

[E_americanus]

A diet that consists exclusively of fish that contain thiaminase will cause a vitamin B1 deficiency. That is just a fact. In gars and every other fish. The OP said he intended to give the gar a good diet though.

way to speak in absolutes. and generally useless contribution to the discussion.

The main issues with farmed feeder fish is not really thiaminase at all but with the chemical cocktail of meds these things are exposed to. Of which copper is a major ingredient and which Gars are known to be sensitive to.

Thiaminase issues are easily countered with gutloading the feed items. It should be noted that thiamin issues are also very present in all fish live, dead, fresh or frozen.

Both Solomon and myself over the years have conducted many a study on gars and feeding/nutrition. Results have been very consistent in that the proposed malignant effects of such "feeder" items are minimal compared to the benefits to a young and growing gar.

Enough said.....

yup!

and finally...

 

[Spiritofthesoul]

Most likely a florida

 

[Younglin]

He asked for recommendations. I recommend not feeding feeder fish. Yes if you gut load with quality food it will help but feeder fish such as goldfish and rosy reds have thiminase. Which is bad for fish. That is just a fact. All I'm saying is, providing a gar with a diet of only feeders is not the best course of action. How is that useless? Should I tell people to stop doing water changes and to only feed once a week? I'm just giving advice based on what is best for the fish.

 

[Wiggles92]

He asked for recommendations. I recommend not feeding feeder fish. Yes if you gut load with quality food it will help but feeder fish such as goldfish and rosy reds have thiminase. Which is bad for fish. That is just a fact. All I'm saying is, providing a gar with a diet of only feeders is not the best course of action. How is that useless? Should I tell people to stop doing water changes and to only feed once a week? I'm just giving advice based on what is best for the fish.

What else do you feed them at that size then? They're supposed to have food available at all times when they're that small, so feeders are pretty much the only viable option. Besides, much their natural diet is made up of various minnows which are Cyprinids just like goldfish and rosy reds.

 

[E_americanus]

He asked for recommendations.
yes, you gave your recommendations, that's fine. i suggested that feeders will work given certain conditions. i'm not arguing that you can't give recommendations, i'm saying your argument against feeders is flawed in this case.
I recommend not feeding feeder fish. Yes if you gut load with quality food it will help but feeder fish such as goldfish and rosy reds have thiminase. Which is bad for fish. That is just a fact.
i'm not disputing that thiaminase is bad for fish, that's true. i'm saying there are ways to counter the issue with a net positive (i.e. good pellets/gut-loading) and still use the feeders. this works. this allows feeders to be used. you just said feeders are bad and didn't provide any useful input otherwise (or options).

water turns to ice when it freezes. that's a fact. that's about as useful as your argument involving thiaminase.

All I'm saying is, providing a gar with a diet of only feeders is not the best course of action.

providing gut-loaded feeders is not "only feeders", so i don't see what you are arguing about here. i agree, feeding a diet of "only feeders" is not the best course of action.

How is that useless? Should I tell people to stop doing water changes and to only feed once a week?

not sure what you're talking about here but it makes no sense.

I'm just giving advice based on what is best for the fish.

in green.

 

[Angler]

He asked for recommendations. I recommend not feeding feeder fish. Yes if you gut load with quality food it will help but feeder fish such as goldfish and rosy reds have thiminase. Which is bad for fish. That is just a fact. All I'm saying is, providing a gar with a diet of only feeders is not the best course of action. How is that useless? Should I tell people to stop doing water changes and to only feed once a week? I'm just giving advice based on what is best for the fish.

Solomon has had extensive experience with gars. He is speaking from that experience and extensive research. You are just regurgitating what you have heard others say about thiminase without any evidence you have gained from your own experiences. Also, it seems like you are ignoring that he stresses the fact that gutloading the feeders with quality food overcomes the vitamin deficiency. Perhaps that's why he said your responses are useless.

 

[Younglin]

OMG /facepalm

Missed my point entirely. Just never mind.

 

[Polypterus]

He asked for recommendations. I recommend not feeding feeder fish. Yes if you gut load with quality food it will help but feeder fish such as goldfish and rosy reds have thiminase. Which is bad for fish. That is just a fact. All I'm saying is, providing a gar with a diet of only feeders is not the best course of action. How is that useless? Should I tell people to stop doing water changes and to only feed once a week? I'm just giving advice based on what is best for the fish.

Again I have to state this.... all fish (Live /dead, Frozen or fresh) for the most part are suspect as far as Thiminase is concerned. If this is what you are fully basing this on then it is not an educated debate here. Really it is not the core problem with farmed feeder fish.

 

[Younglin]

Sigh... When he first posted I wasn't sure how much he knew about fish keeping or how much experience he had. As such I gave the advice I give to every nooby who thinks feeding nothing but goldfish without quarantine or feeding them quality food, is fine. I haven't been disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that goldfish and other fish with thiaminase will not make a good diet by themselves. That's all I'm saying. How difficult this has been makes me want to shoot myself. I agree with everything else that has been said, ( for the most part) I was just trying to ensure that the OP prepared his feeders or better yet not use feeders at all. Seriously this was like pulling teeth.

 

[MonsterMinis]

Other then feeling like that... both my gar where raised on feeders and get live foods on a regular basis. as Pej just reiterated.. Thiamine is in ALL frozen fish. not just Cyprid species. But live feeder fish get a bad wrap. because they are often carriers of disease, and parasites often times. at No point was it suggested to the OP NOT to QT feeder 'nore gut-load them prior to feeding. a pretty simple stratagy I followed with my gar.

1- feed them live foods QTd prior to feeding, feed said live foods a HQ diet like NLS or omega one flakes or some other vitaminm rich food. Until they hit the 12" range ( which will take approx 4-6 monthes give or take on species, temps, water quality ect) at this size I start offering frozen or freezedried krill... it's stinky and they like it. continue to offer live foods constantly, while introduceing them to pellets ect. removeing uneaten food in the AM or PM ( depending when you feed, don't let it sit and rot) I've found my gar to be lazy and once they realize the pellets are alot easier to grab they started eating them w/out any issues.

2 - at 1 yr. offer live foods as a treat and exercise, and offer pellets and other foods everyother day or so. at this point cruicial growth stages have been reached and acheived and the gar will continue to grow at a steady yet much slower rate.

I'm sure that Sol, and Pej could add to that.. but from what I've learned on here thats the general gist most gar keepers seem to follow. I know I have and both my gar are active and neither over weight 'nore under weight. Being as they do get feeders I have wormed them and will likely worm them like I do my horse and cat as a precautionary measure.

There is my advise and experiance.. and mostly what I learned from Sol and Pej either threw direct answers to my inquireies or threw reading their responses to others. And of course owning my lovely Floridas.