New tank owner looking to upgrade

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

IMO, this type of scenario would be not just to think of the cost, but of the fish. The clown loaches, weather loach, and pictus catfish all have something to lose if housed with any non-ropefish bichir (their lives), while the bichir would also run a serious risk of dying because of the loaches and catfish having spikes that could kill it if eaten.
Even with my personal dislike for bichirs (that came about for the exact same issues this thread deals with! Perhaps that's noteworthy) notwithstanding, I don't think that's at all fair on the loaches and pictus catfish, plus the weather loach already provides an eel-like aspect and doesn't pose any risk to its tankmates nor is at any risk itself from dying after eating spiky prey.

 

[Joshuakahan]

IMO, this type of scenario would be not just to think of the cost, but of the fish. The clown loaches, weather loach, and pictus catfish all have something to lose if housed with any non-ropefish bichir (their lives), while the bichir would also run a serious risk of dying because of the loaches and catfish having spikes that could kill it if eaten.
Even with my personal dislike for bichirs (that came about for the exact same issues this thread deals with! Perhaps that's noteworthy) notwithstanding, I don't think that's at all fair on the loaches and pictus catfish, plus the weather loach already provides an eel-like aspect and doesn't pose any risk to its tankmates nor is at any risk itself from dying after eating spiky prey.

The risk is minimal, odds are nothing will happen and everything will be fine. Fish eat each other all the time, eating a loach is no different than eating a feeder other than cost which is also minimal. If the OP is concerned and really wants the bichir, they can always rehome whatever fish they’re concerned about, but I would bet money that if they’re all of appropriate size, there would be no issue of one eating another or attempting to.
Basically, if I wanted a fish, I would take factors like tank size and husbandry into account, but a $5 fish would not be a factor

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

The risk is minimal, odds are nothing will happen and everything will be fine.

I must agree with Gourami Swami on what would happen. The bichirs will grow fast enough to eat the loaches and catfish, and (as applies to any carnivorous fish) chances are that if a fish fits in another fish's mouth, that's where it's going to end up.

Fish eat each other all the time

It's honestly not fair on the loaches and pictus catfish to live with a tankmate that is more than likely going to eat them very quickly, especially when there are suitable and safe alternatives (weather loaches and ropefish).

eating a loach is no different than eating a feeder other than cost which is also minimal

The spikes beg to differ. You might change your view after reading what happened here: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/clown-loach-toxic.667196/

If the OP is concerned and really wants the bichir, they can always rehome whatever fish they’re concerned about

This is the route I would take if I were Ghostknifelover (either that or set up another tank). Fair on all the fish.

but I would bet money that if they’re all of appropriate size, there would be no issue of one eating another or attempting to.

So would I. The problem is that the loaches and catfish either don't get large enough or grow fast enough for every fish in the tank to be at the proper size ratio to not view their tankmates as food.

Basically, if I wanted a fish, I would take factors like tank size and husbandry into account, but a $5 fish would not be a factor

Don't you think you should consider how fair it would be on the fish? You may find it helpful to look at it this way: how fair would you consider the situation if you were a pictus catfish, weather loach, or clown loach, got placed with a bichir that would most likely make lunch out of you, and didn't have the owner take any precautions for your safety because you were cheap?
I'm sure you'd agree that that would not be fair at all, which is why I am so concerned for the loaches and catfish if they end up having a bichir as a tankmate.

Now, in the end, Ghostknifelover and their partner can get any fish they want. I'm just trying to give them advice that leads to the fairest outcome for the fish.

 

[Joshuakahan]

I must agree with Gourami Swami on what would happen. The bichirs will grow fast enough to eat the loaches and catfish, and (as applies to any carnivorous fish) chances are that if a fish fits in another fish's mouth, that's where it's going to end up.


It's honestly not fair on the loaches and pictus catfish to live with a tankmate that is more than likely going to eat them very quickly, especially when there are suitable and safe alternatives (weather loaches and ropefish).



The spikes beg to differ. You might change your view after reading what happened here: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/clown-loach-toxic.667196/
View attachment 1476570



This is the route I would take if I were Ghostknifelover (either that or set up another tank). Fair on all the fish.



So would I. The problem is that the loaches and catfish either don't get large enough or grow fast enough for every fish in the tank to be at the proper size ratio to not view their tankmates as food.



Don't you think you should consider how fair it would be on the fish? You may find it helpful to look at it this way: how fair would you consider the situation if you were a pictus catfish, weather loach, or clown loach, got placed with a bichir that would most likely make lunch out of you, and didn't have the owner take any precautions for your safety because you were cheap?
I'm sure you'd agree that that would not be fair at all, which is why I am so concerned for the loaches and catfish if they end up having a bichir as a tankmate.

Now, in the end, Ghostknifelover and their partner can get any fish they want. I'm just trying to give them advice that leads to the fairest outcome for the fish.

Asking how I would feel if I was a fish put in a situation is humanizing fish and I don’t answer things like that.
I’m not a bichir expert but I’ve been keeping them for about 5 years and never had an issue with one eating another fish or even trying. That’s why I say the risk is minimal. I have kept large bichir with smaller pims, loaches various cichlids etc… never an issue. To say they shouldn’t get a bichir because of the risk is what in disagree with. Just let them know that it’s a possibility and what they can do to minimize the risk and leave it at that. That’s how I see it.
As far as getting the sizes right, that’s what grow out tanks are for and that’s why people buy slower growing fish first.
If we look, we can always find something somewhere that went wrong with just about any situation , but it doesn’t mean it’s common or certain that it will happen

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Asking how I would feel if I was a fish put in a situation is humanizing fish and I don’t answer things like that.

Humanizing or not (which wasn't even the intention), the point I intended to make with that analogy was that it simply isn't fair to the loaches and catfish to be placed in that situation just because they are cheap. They're entitled to a tank as danger-free as possible (as are all aquarium fish, of course), which is most likely not going to be a tank with a bichir in it.

I’m not a bichir expert but I’ve been keeping them for about 5 years and never had an issue with one eating another fish or even trying. That’s why I say the risk is minimal. I have kept large bichir with smaller pims, loaches various cichlids etc… never an issue.

There are countless instances (such as on this very site and in this very thread) of bichirs eating surprisingly large fish. I'm not saying you are wrong or that it can't work, but that based on all those other instances (as well as the simple rule of thumb about fish eating any fish that fit in their mouths), it most likely won't be a good mix.

To say they shouldn’t get a bichir because of the risk is what in disagree with. Just let them know that it’s a possibility and what they can do to minimize the risk and leave it at that. That’s how I see it.

Like I said before, they're free to get any fish they want. I'm just letting them know why I would not recommend getting a bichir.

As far as getting the sizes right, that’s what grow out tanks are for and that’s why people buy slower growing fish first.

I don't know how fast weather loaches grow, but the clown loaches would need an awful lot of time to be bichir-safe (we're talking >10 years) when taking into account growth rates. The pictus catfish would inevitably be at risk at some point, their adult size is not large enough to be safe (see what Gourami Swami said).

If we look, we can always find something somewhere that went wrong with just about any situation , but it doesn’t mean it’s common or certain that it will happen

When the lion's share of the cases point to that wrong thing, that suggests it's not the best idea. Exceptions to every rule do of course exist, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily commonplace.

 

[Joshuakahan]

Humanizing or not (which wasn't even the intention), the point I intended to make with that analogy was that it simply isn't fair to the loaches and catfish to be placed in that situation just because they are cheap. They're entitled to a tank as danger-free as possible (as are all aquarium fish, of course), which is most likely not going to be a tank with a bichir in it.



There are countless instances (such as on this very site and in this very thread) of bichirs eating surprisingly large fish. I'm not saying you are wrong or that it can't work, but that based on all those other instances (as well as the simple rule of thumb about fish eating any fish that fit in their mouths), it most likely won't be a good mix.



Like I said before, they're free to get any fish they want. I'm just letting them know why I would not recommend getting a bichir.



I don't know how fast weather loaches grow, but the clown loaches would need an awful lot of time to be bichir-safe (we're talking >10 years) when taking into account growth rates. The pictus catfish would inevitably be at risk at some point, their adult size is not large enough to be safe (see what Gourami Swami said).



When the lion's share of the cases point to that wrong thing, that suggests it's not the best idea. Exceptions to every rule do of course exist, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily commonplace.

There’s always the option of buying a large loach or whatever it is and growing the bichir out. That’s actually how I do it. The lions share of the problems are due to improper size fish. If the sizes are right, it almost certainly will be fine. If this wasn’t true, i would’ve had at least one instance of a problem, but I’ve had zero in 5 years of keeping
bichir
We can disagree, but I’m sticking to my recommendation that it’s almost certainly safe as long as the right bichir is selected and the sizes are right. Almost any smaller upper jaw would be fine

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

There’s always the option of buying a large loach or whatever it is and growing the bichir out. That’s actually how I do it. The lions share of the problems are due to improper size fish. If the sizes are right, it almost certainly will be fine. If this wasn’t true, i would’ve had at least one instance of a problem, but I’ve had zero in 5 years of keeping
bichir

I am speaking in terms of stock for the 208 liter. That is certainly an option for Ghostknifelover's future larger tank, but a weather loach or clown loach (the only 2 that have bichir-safe adult sizes) is too big for a 208 liter when it is too big to be eaten.

We can disagree, but I’m sticking to my recommendation that it’s almost certainly safe as long as the right bichir is selected and the sizes are right. Almost any smaller upper jaw would be fine

Disagreeing is fair enough, it's all up to Ghostknifelover in the end. This was quite a mannerful and informative discussion anyway ?

 

[Joshuakahan]

I am speaking in terms of stock for the 208 liter. That is certainly an option for Ghostknifelover's future larger tank, but a weather loach or clown loach (the only 2 that have bichir-safe adult sizes) is too big for a 208 liter when it is too big to be eaten.



Disagreeing is fair enough, it's all up to Ghostknifelover in the end. This was quite a mannerful and informative discussion anyway ?

I think it was a good informative debate for the OP to sift through. I’ve been in the hobby since the mid 80s and sometimes things that I just do out of habit don’t always occur to me to mention when giving advice lol this made me mention some of those things ? like getting slower growers first for example

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Reviving this thread as I found a custom aquarium website with a 4.7/5 rating that could be useful to Ghostknifelover and their partner: https://www.midwestcustomaquariums.com/

I also would like to offer more specific stocking recommendations to Ghostknifelover based on the discussion and their stated plans for other fish in this thread. For the bichir-free tank that I recommend (as per my discussion with Joshuakahan), the ghost knifefish, Mr. Catfish, and Greg could be housed with 8 more weather loaches and 9 clown loaches in a 3 meter x 75 cm tank (following the Practical Fishkeeping rule, as stated earlier in the thread) with a 40 cm height, according to AqAdvisor.
More loaches can of course be added should the final tank end up with a larger footprint than 3 meters x 75 cm.

 

[nzeng1111]

Currently I have a 20 gallon freshwater tank with a young black ghost knife and some other smaller fish that are large enough not to be eaten yet. I just ordered a 225 gallon tank from China and am looking for recommendations on cool fish to get. My partner and I are interested in fish that look like eels and carnivors with large impressive mouths that can coexist with our black ghost knife in the larger tank.

Any recommendations for fish we should get? The black ghost knife is only four inches right now, but we are hoping it will grow to its full 20 inch potential in a matter of years.View attachment 1476032View attachment 1476033View attachment 1476034

With a ghost knife fish, I'd probably do a planted oddball tank.
Angelfish, Ctenopoma, Senegal/Delhezi bichir, clouded archerfish, Gourami, butterflyfish, or fire eels are all good options as oddballs. I'd also recommend a group of smaller relatively nonaggressive cichlids to observe the social behavior such as laetacara, bolivian ram, keyholes, kribensis. Something larger like electric blue acara and possibly a group of the lifallili jewels given the size of the tank could possibly work as well, a unique cichlid you can add is the steatocranus.

Definetely also add a few schools of schooling fish with 20+. Good schooling fish are congo tetras, large rainbowfish, or giant danios

Alongside the stocklist, make sure to plant heavy and enjoy the tank!