No Chemicals, No Medications, No Dechlorinator.

[2Itiwhetu]

people don’t know what they don’t know. I Defintely won’t post the whole truth regarding my cavalier attitude about treating water for fear of being “cancelled” hahaha

I was breaking down outdoor vats a couple weeks ago which means getting a bunch of glass tanks up and running inside. I simply filled them with tap water, through in a bunch (what I felt like was about half of what I wanted in there) of hornwort and Anacharis and added the fish minutes later along with the other half the plants. I added the second half of the plants after the initial plant addition becuase a significant portion or maybe all the beneficial hitchhikers ie bacteria etc on the first load died while consuming all the free chlorine. Tanks are all in a building heated to 60 degrees tank temperature all run low to mid 60s except a few with fry I still have up at 68 minimum with heaters.

I encourage hobbyists to fill a 5 gallon bucket with tap water and then just put there hands in and like washing them in the bucket- then test the chlorine. Do the same thing but squirt a teaspoon of lemon juice into the water, or rinse a head of lettuce off in the water and then test the chlorine. That way no one has to take my word or yours or anyone else’s. It’s easy. When I was a kid we had a swimming pool for years. Keeping the chlorine levels up was a chore. An actual chore that I performed every day. Chlorine is not durable.

I am convinced that the dechlorinator sales teams have done a great job on aquatists and now people are too scared to move away. I was taught how to keep fish when I was 14 by a professor of Zoology, there was never any mention of adding anything to the water. But he always made sure all the tanks had loads of plant.

 

[2Itiwhetu]

I am convinced that the dechlorinator sales teams have done a great job on aquatists and now people are too scared to move away. I was taught how to keep fish when I was 14 by a professor of Zoology, there was never any mention of adding anything to the water. But he always made sure all the tanks had loads of plant.

Do you have any experience with Chloramine, I believe the same system that we use for Chlorine should work with Chloramine. But on the other forum they all told me it would be "certain death"

 

[C. Breeze]

Do you have any experience with Chloramine, I believe the same system that we use for Chlorine should work with Chloramine. But on the other forum they all told me it would be "certain death"

chloramine doesn’t oxidize well- it doesn’t react as well as chlorine does. This means it takes more of it in the supply for it to be effective.

i personally think that plants are “The Way” to deal with cholramine. If I were dealing with Chloramine, I’d be adverse to doing so in my tank- mainly becuase the result of breaking the bond between the chlorine and ammonia releases the ammonia even as the chlorine gets bound back up in its component forms. The plants handle that… and in a system where you know you were mildly acidic while it’s happening, you are getting ammonium moreso than ammonia innthe exchange.

On the surface if we follow the system through- it seems like a nonissue, but I like to think in terms of total
Impact to the system and how it impacts the overall resilience and health of the system- and to that extent I think that when dealing the additional chemical processes involved with chloramine reduction, factoring in the fact that in addition to the ammonia issue it’s releasing more chlorine than water treated with solely chlorine will- we are getting into the realm of wanting a separate system for those processes to take Place rather than the one that houses your fish.

long long way of saying I think plants are still the way, but I’d keep a separate tank of water with algae and plants in it to the extent thatmy space or situation supports it, and I’d use it for my water changes and just top it off after each water change

 

[xenacanth9]

+1

 

[2Itiwhetu]

chloramine doesn’t oxidize well- it doesn’t react as well as chlorine does. This means it takes more of it in the supply for it to be effective.

i personally think that plants are “The Way” to deal with cholramine. If I were dealing with Chloramine, I’d be adverse to doing so in my tank- mainly becuase the result of breaking the bond between the chlorine and ammonia releases the ammonia even as the chlorine gets bound back up in its component forms. The plants handle that… and in a system where you know you were mildly acidic while it’s happening, you are getting ammonium moreso than ammonia innthe exchange.

On the surface if we follow the system through- it seems like a nonissue, but I like to think in terms of total
Impact to the system and how it impacts the overall resilience and health of the system- and to that extent I think that when dealing the additional chemical processes involved with chloramine reduction, factoring in the fact that in addition to the ammonia issue it’s releasing more chlorine than water treated with solely chlorine will- we are getting into the realm of wanting a separate system for those processes to take Place rather than the one that houses your fish.

long long way of saying I think plants are still the way, but I’d keep a separate tank of water with algae and plants in it to the extent thatmy space or situation supports it, and I’d use it for my water changes and just top it off after each water change

So, just a thought if you had a sump filter that was fill of plant you could in effect switch that off your main tank water change the sump then 24 or 48 hours later switch it back on to drive your main tank. That was an idea I had to get around the Chloramine issue

 

[2Itiwhetu]

Can I just say thank goodness we can have a rational discussion about this with being locked out. Thank you Monsterfishkeepers moderating team

 

[Hendre]

Interesting concept, but ditching some chemicals is a pretty spicy stance with the relative non-impact on fish from dechlorinators. Some notes and questions:

If you can get your tank there then it is possible to stop using dechlorinator for your water changes, it is important not to change more than 25% at a time.

Why not use dechlorinator? Even low chlorine concentrations of 0.3ppm can be fatal, especially at pH levels between 6 & 7 (source). Tapwater can have up to 4ppm of chlorine in (source) so even a 25% waterchange can have up to 1ppm chlorine, and it takes only 1.2ppm tap chlorine to reach the fatal levels once diluted. Not all fish are as susceptible but the point stands. Small waterchanges often fail to remove excess nitrates and organic molecules such as hormones. As you mentioned free chlorine may be lower, but it's not a risk we really want to take.

Chloramine is far more stable and unlikely to gas out of the water compared to chlorine. I don't see the issue with using a dechlorinator, can be made super cheaply yourself.

I stopped using medications years ago when I realized that fish only get sick when they get stressed.

Diseases still happen at a far greater rate in aquariums than in wild fish, or at least more intensely. Preemptive use is discouraged by most people, but what do you do when a disease takes hold?

Try not to make this hobby complicated, avoid CO2 and Fertilizers, avoid pH adjusters ( you can adjust pH and hardness naturally).

You want to maintain a huge plant mass without co2 or ferts? How do you intend on doing that? Plants need a balance of their nutrient and carbon uptake for proper, healthy growth.

pH is always so fussed over, the best thing is stability. Consistent, large water changes keep the buffering capacity of the aquarium up. Provided you keep the temperatures similar it is generally the preferred method as it removes large amounts of material that can't be filtered out like nitrates, hormones, and other organics. With proper filtration ammonia spikes can be avoided.

I am poking lots of holes into this as I am interested in the discussion.

 

[2Itiwhetu]

Interesting concept, but ditching some chemicals is a pretty spicy stance with the relative non-impact on fish from dechlorinators. Some notes and questions:


Why not use dechlorinator? Even low chlorine concentrations of 0.3ppm can be fatal, especially at pH levels between 6 & 7 (source). Tapwater can have up to 4ppm of chlorine in (source) so even a 25% waterchange can have up to 1ppm chlorine, and it takes only 1.2ppm tap chlorine to reach the fatal levels once diluted. Not all fish are as susceptible but the point stands. Small waterchanges often fail to remove excess nitrates and organic molecules such as hormones. As you mentioned free chlorine may be lower, but it's not a risk we really want to take.

Chloramine is far more stable and unlikely to gas out of the water compared to chlorine. I don't see the issue with using a dechlorinator, can be made super cheaply yourself.


Diseases still happen at a far greater rate in aquariums than in wild fish, or at least more intensely. Preemptive use is discouraged by most people, but what do you do when a disease takes hold?


You want to maintain a huge plant mass without co2 or ferts? How do you intend on doing that? Plants need a balance of their nutrient and carbon uptake for proper, healthy growth.

pH is always so fussed over, the best thing is stability. Consistent, large water changes keep the buffering capacity of the aquarium up. Provided you keep the temperatures similar it is generally the preferred method as it removes large amounts of material that can't be filtered out like nitrates, hormones, and other organics. With proper filtration ammonia spikes can be avoided.

I am poking lots of holes into this as I am interested in the discussion.

Thank you as a moderator you want to discuss this on the other site this discussion was shut down by now.
I will try to cover some if not all of the issues you have raised for give me if I miss a few.
There is no reason not to use dechlorinator only that I never have used dechlorinator so I don't understand the need. I balance my tanks with fish population and plants so it is not needed . 25% water changes have always served me well.
If you don't vacuum your tanks continuously then the fish provide all the nutrients the plants need.
If you use a neutral natural substrate that provides the mineral content you tank needs.
My philosophy is about removing the man made component and concentrate on the natural.

 

[A201]

I like the OP's 100% natural approach to fishkeeping and agree on many given points.
I don't believe anything mentioned is especially new or revolutionary. Plenty of fishkeepers out there running self sustaining / no water change systems.
Unless one is blessed with a clean well, not treating chlorinated tap water is risky. Chloramine increases the risk.
I keep overstocked tanks & weekly change out 35% - 50% of the water.
My fish aren't plant friendly, resulting in stacked rocks rather than an aqua garden. Lol. Like most fishkeepers, I unapologetically use water conditioners.
Although trying to manage tanks in a 100% naturalistic way is a worthwhile goal, it's not a realistic possibility for most fishkeepers, especially MFK's.
As for the use of meds, IMO, a well maintained tank & careful stock selection greatly reduces the need. It seems no matter how meticulous one trys to keep & maintain an aquarium community sooner or later a bad bug outbreak will occur.
It's been my experience that keeping a good anti parasitic med handy is a good idea. I won't use antibiotics.
Just my two cents. Btw welcome to MFK.

 

[duanes]

There are many things advanced, experienced aquarists can get away with, learned thru trial and error, that the average hobbyist can't make work.
What do I mean be this? Because there's nothing wrong with either.

If you consider fish keeping to be only one of your many hobbies, (or just a pleasant thing to have in the house) and a small diversion in your life,....... or if you buy and combine fish mainly because you like their colors....

If you only maintain a tank or 2, using normal, store bought filtration, or choose fish without consideration to water parameters,....or .....
only do a minor water change once per week because that's what "the book says".....

If you "don't" maintain a quarantine tank, and don't know your tap water, or tank water parameters like the back of your hand.

If you are even any one or two the type fishkeeper above.

Don't try some of the stuff said a number of previous posts above, at home, because.....

Using a dechlorinator/dechloraminator is going to be necessary.