Sounds so simple when one is simply dealing with the likes of chlorine. lol
No Chemicals, No Medications, No Dechlorinator.
- Thread starter 2Itiwhetu
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Seriously, you don't understand the concept of reducing agents? Chlorine is child's play, but chloramine can spend a week in an open glass container and still be near 100% of it's original strength. That, and over the course or a year, and the various seasons, can vary wildly in overall residual strength. As it can from town to town, city to city, and state to state. No different for chlorine, and how close, or far away, one is from the source. Below is a past thread where residual levels were discussed.
How fast does water conditioner work? | MonsterFishKeepers.com
For some, a non issue, straight from the tap, for others, a death sentence for their fish. There are a LOT of factors at play when dealing with disinfectant residuals. Residual strength, type of residual, chlorine vs chloramine, tap water pH, water temp, size of water change, species of fish, plants vs no plants, etc.
Hey, I'm glad that this works for you, and others, I truly am, but for other folks it could easily end in disaster. I have seen just that, including here on MFK, entire tanks wiped out due to someone forgetting to add a reducing agent such as Prime.
Just thought that I would add that for anyone newish to the hobby that decides to take the plunge without understanding the potential dangers involved.
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In my particular case the goal is healthy tanks/systems/fish.
the idea that I need to buy a reagent to use in order to effect a chemical reaction, that is going to happen anyway, on contact with “stuff” (I’m being intentionally vague, and broad in my use of that term) of the kind that’s already in my tank, ie driftwood, plants, algae, detritus etc, strikes me as superfluous.
going back to the winter tanks I just set up- I could go buy a bottle of dilute sodium thiosulfate solution or buy the crystals and mix my own to add. At which point I’d still have to add the plants etc that makes the system work. It’s just as effective to add half the plant mass (or a big piece of driftwood, or some lemon juice, or rinse off some lettuce , throw in a handful of topsoil, etc etc etc) to the straight Tap water in order to render it safe. So at that point I ask- what’s the point of the sodium thiosulfate- if it is superfluous, it’s superfluous. It can’t replace the plants in a system but I can use almost anything else that is “dirty” to do it’s job.
Back To Chloramine- which I think for most (those who don’t know if they face it and those who know they do) hobbyists is the real sticking point.
the very things that make chloramine more difficult to address in and aquarium are the same “attributes” that make it less desirable for water Treatment than chlorine- mainly the fact that it is more stable and difficult to unbind the constituent components.
plants are great at this, as well as really good at utilizing the ammonia / ammonium that is released. I would rather deal with chloramine in a separate planted system without additional reagents than by double dosing with sodium thiosulfate (the common advice) in my tank when conducting a partial water change. The double dose of sodium thiosulfate will bind up O2 in the water column, while releasing ammonia into the water column.
Or even worse- it won’t actually break the chlorine/ ammonia bond and you’ll still be relying on the organic matter in your tank to do the heavy lifting.
the idea that I need to buy a reagent to use in order to effect a chemical reaction, that is going to happen anyway, on contact with “stuff” (I’m being intentionally vague, and broad in my use of that term) of the kind that’s already in my tank, ie driftwood, plants, algae, detritus etc, strikes me as superfluous.
going back to the winter tanks I just set up- I could go buy a bottle of dilute sodium thiosulfate solution or buy the crystals and mix my own to add. At which point I’d still have to add the plants etc that makes the system work. It’s just as effective to add half the plant mass (or a big piece of driftwood, or some lemon juice, or rinse off some lettuce , throw in a handful of topsoil, etc etc etc) to the straight Tap water in order to render it safe. So at that point I ask- what’s the point of the sodium thiosulfate- if it is superfluous, it’s superfluous. It can’t replace the plants in a system but I can use almost anything else that is “dirty” to do it’s job.
Back To Chloramine- which I think for most (those who don’t know if they face it and those who know they do) hobbyists is the real sticking point.
the very things that make chloramine more difficult to address in and aquarium are the same “attributes” that make it less desirable for water Treatment than chlorine- mainly the fact that it is more stable and difficult to unbind the constituent components.
plants are great at this, as well as really good at utilizing the ammonia / ammonium that is released. I would rather deal with chloramine in a separate planted system without additional reagents than by double dosing with sodium thiosulfate (the common advice) in my tank when conducting a partial water change. The double dose of sodium thiosulfate will bind up O2 in the water column, while releasing ammonia into the water column.
Or even worse- it won’t actually break the chlorine/ ammonia bond and you’ll still be relying on the organic matter in your tank to do the heavy lifting.
I don’t like the idea of using the actual sump as your “chloramine reactor” mainly due to the fact that I want as much biology happening in there as possible- so if it’s reasonable/ possible to address the chloramine issue before it gets into your system that’s the best way. 50gallon drum with plants in it and an air stone- all the way up to 275 gallon IBC tote outfitted the same way would be my vote and I’d just fill from them with a sump pump.
Better yet, use a product such as Seachem Safe (no need for a double dose), which renders the resulting ammonia fish safe, so no worries about how fast (or not) the uptake by plants is, or isn't. When purchased in bulk, for the average hobbyist they will take several years or more to empty the container. It's cheap, effective, and completely safe (no pun intended) for any aquatic organism found on this planet.
Sorry, but this is more BS than poetry.
You cannot make the statement that this tank eliminates all need for chemocals and then list at least one chemical you have never tested. In fact, I bet I can list 100s you have not tested.
To make my point I wonder how this system works in a tank full of plant eating fish.?
I have been spawning varuiety of fish for years and more have gone on their own. The one thing I know is that most fish see fry as being a menu item. Good luck successfully breding most species in a community type tank.
Let me see you set up a 50 tank fish room and make this system work.
Let me see you bring in fish from the wild and never have to treat for anything.
Now I have had 20 assorted tanks for years. What I do know is some run much better than others.
In one tank I keep fish that came to me almost directly from the wild where they were living in about pH 4.0 water. Can you keep these with your method? There is almost no way naturally to have tank water at a ph close to 4.0 and TDS at 20 - 30 ppm naturally in an aquarium and plants will not be happy in it at all.
Here is what I do know about this hobby. There is very little that is universal about it. Here are a few of the universals which apply to every single tank and fish in the world.
Fish must be kept in water.
Fish must be fed.
Fish should not be kept in conditions that are harmful or detrimental to them.
This is about all that is universal.
But what I really want to know is what the OP tells the folks who want to keep rift lake cichlids. Exactly how will his system work for them? What about a tank with an oscar?
Moreover, fish from seasonal waters tend to eat different food based on the season. Their diet is not fixed. Moreover, what food one feeds matters. For my breeding fish I oinly feed commercial flakes etc. between 10 and 15% of the time. The rest of the time they get a much more nutritious diet. I sometimes skip feeding for a day or even two. Some fish may be fed more than once a day. especailly new fry. None of my fish do not get varied diets.
Now I am no pro. I only have 20 tanks and they only hold about 25 species including shrimp and snails. But I have hundreds of fish fish and inverts. I keep a few planted tanks and did a CO2 added high tech planted tank for about a decade. Oddly enough, this was one of my healthiest tanks. I was adding fertilizers and pressurized CO2 regularly. The one thing I have never needed at home is dechlor. We have amazing water from our private well. I have had one person come here with five gallon buckets to get my tap water to put into her tanks. This was because of how many of my fish spawned in it.
And then I am really curious what the OP considers a chemical? Is salt a chemical? Is the muriatic acid I often add to one tank to keep the pH low a chemical? Then I am a bit odd about plants, They grow, they fill a tank and I will prune. But I hate throwing out plants and I do not sell them. It is a time consuming money loser. Some of my tanks are so heavily planted they will crash without added ferts etc. The result is some tanks are more than 50% planted.
You cannot make the statement that this tank eliminates all need for chemocals and then list at least one chemical you have never tested. In fact, I bet I can list 100s you have not tested.
To make my point I wonder how this system works in a tank full of plant eating fish.?
I have been spawning varuiety of fish for years and more have gone on their own. The one thing I know is that most fish see fry as being a menu item. Good luck successfully breding most species in a community type tank.
Let me see you set up a 50 tank fish room and make this system work.
Let me see you bring in fish from the wild and never have to treat for anything.
Now I have had 20 assorted tanks for years. What I do know is some run much better than others.
In one tank I keep fish that came to me almost directly from the wild where they were living in about pH 4.0 water. Can you keep these with your method? There is almost no way naturally to have tank water at a ph close to 4.0 and TDS at 20 - 30 ppm naturally in an aquarium and plants will not be happy in it at all.
Here is what I do know about this hobby. There is very little that is universal about it. Here are a few of the universals which apply to every single tank and fish in the world.
Fish must be kept in water.
Fish must be fed.
Fish should not be kept in conditions that are harmful or detrimental to them.
This is about all that is universal.
But what I really want to know is what the OP tells the folks who want to keep rift lake cichlids. Exactly how will his system work for them? What about a tank with an oscar?
Moreover, fish from seasonal waters tend to eat different food based on the season. Their diet is not fixed. Moreover, what food one feeds matters. For my breeding fish I oinly feed commercial flakes etc. between 10 and 15% of the time. The rest of the time they get a much more nutritious diet. I sometimes skip feeding for a day or even two. Some fish may be fed more than once a day. especailly new fry. None of my fish do not get varied diets.
Now I am no pro. I only have 20 tanks and they only hold about 25 species including shrimp and snails. But I have hundreds of fish fish and inverts. I keep a few planted tanks and did a CO2 added high tech planted tank for about a decade. Oddly enough, this was one of my healthiest tanks. I was adding fertilizers and pressurized CO2 regularly. The one thing I have never needed at home is dechlor. We have amazing water from our private well. I have had one person come here with five gallon buckets to get my tap water to put into her tanks. This was because of how many of my fish spawned in it.
And then I am really curious what the OP considers a chemical? Is salt a chemical? Is the muriatic acid I often add to one tank to keep the pH low a chemical? Then I am a bit odd about plants, They grow, they fill a tank and I will prune. But I hate throwing out plants and I do not sell them. It is a time consuming money loser. Some of my tanks are so heavily planted they will crash without added ferts etc. The result is some tanks are more than 50% planted.
0h snap- it’s the bio farmer. Hahahahaha. Don’t you have some sponges to try to cycle or something?
Poeetry? No, just a candid discussion about biological and chemical processes in an unsealed but “contained” ecosystem.
the only thing I know about your methods and system is that they are so complex and convoluted that you can’t even make them work when you attempt to do a tutorial thread. I like that you always post your full resume though, it reassures me that if the subject matter expert can’t make his system work- there’s no need for me to waste my time. Do you want to link to your “bio farm” thread or should I? Should I post links tonall
My various breeding threads including species that are new collections, undescribed, not yet in the hobby etc? You kill me.
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I also agree with Duane, in this hobby One Size Fits All seldom applies.
