Northfin food
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[h=1][FONT="]CANAMONSTER, [/FONT][/h] [h=1][FONT="]We are very proud that the food performing and reaching your expectations. We also getting e-mails and comments like you're on the daily basis. [/FONT][/h]
Neil, did I spell this time correctly
[h=1][FONT="]Good luck on your achievements most of them are from books & journals and in theory most of them never been proven. You will need to spend years in the factories that actually make the product just to get the other side of this business.[/FONT][/h] [h=1][FONT="]From someone that knows both sides of the business your comments don't make any sense. And we all know that thy are on purpose just to put NLS on top. You are calling Clay a plot and have double Garlic in NLS of which are even bigger plot. Never been proven and have more limitations than clay. Everything can be made better and will be made better and there is nothing can be done, same thing happened in this case.[/FONT][/h] [h=1][FONT="]Another example: you are incorrect about the Organic Kelp, First of all you don't even know what Kelp we are using . There are standards and regulations, and the one we are using is Pro-Cert Organic and USDA Organic certified.[/FONT][/h] [h=1][FONT="]Northfin don't push their product with the force like NLS was doing until you got banned from most forums. And is funny that everyone that did not liked NLS became evil in your view.[/FONT][/h] [h=1][FONT="]I have no intentions going on the forums and bashing other products even if they are bad or better.[/FONT][/h] [h=1][FONT="]And if anyone needs to get some info or advise simply are free to contact me.[/FONT][/h]
[h=1][FONT="]PS. Pongo, Nice fish you have, astonishing colors.[/FONT][/h]
Interesting. Ive been using Xtreme for a year or so and Neil and I have great communication and he helps me all the time. He's never demonized me for using another food, even though Ive recently switched over to NLS. The 6mm pellet I use is definitely a sinking pellet too but perhaps its just the Thera A.
So there are currently no US distributors? Canada only huh.....
So there are currently no US distributors? Canada only huh.....
Thank you. I'm bowing out of this discussion. Not smart enough on the technical aspect to contribute and my doctor doesn't want me to argue. My final words are that I am completely happy with the results that I am getting using NorthFin. Good growth, colour and even difficult to breed fish are breeding constantly. Fish do love it and I never have to worry about uneaten food. I think I might have some kind of disease because every time someone says ''nice fish'' I have to throw another picture up..Probably would have been cheaper having kids.Take care.
LMAO, you just can't leave it alone, can you?
Like usual, when someone runs out of intelligent things to say in a debate they attempt to make things personal by attacking the messenger, not the message. Perhaps you would like to share with the members here on MFK exactly what "most forums" I have been banned from?
You might also like to know that I was recommending NLS long before I had any vested interest in fish food. It was never about the $$$ to me. Also, over the many years that I have been doing this, I have never once started a discussion about NLS. Ever. Now, if some peep wants to start comparing the latest new player on the circuit with NLS, then that pretty much opens the door for others (such as myself) to join in. Anyone that isn't interested in expanding their knowledge base, no matter what brand they feed, can simply not click on the discussion - or hit the back button if they don't want to read what I have to say. I can only *push* items on an online forum to morons who are too dense to understand how to use their computer mouse. I don't think that has ever happened.
I understand that kelp can be certified as being organic, what I said was that there are no official rules governing the labeling of organic foods for pets. It's like referring to something as "natural", when it comes to tropical fish food most of these things are open to interpretation. For that matter, in Canada we don't even have to follow AAFCO terms or definitions, they are only "recommended" by the label standards set forth by the Competition Act. CFIA only seem to care about whether the food can introduce mad cow disease, or not. The governing bodies up here are a pathetic joke, don't even get me started on that subject.
http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/01229.html
As an example, I don't know if you state this on your fish food containers, but on your website, on your About Us page, you state;
For a guy who supposedly knows both sides of the business, and thinks that he can school me on everything, here's a little friendly tip for you. If you ever get to the point that you are shipping food to the USA, you might want to make sure that you don't have any type of "hormone free" statement on any of your products - because that can (and by some States will) be consideried false/inaccurate product information, and they will reject your food at their border. FYI - all fish contain natural growth hormones, hence any food that contains any type of fish product, such as fish meal, will contain hormones. Some State officials will let these things fly, others won't. I have seen fish food rejected by at least one State for this exact reason.
You speak of theory, and what's been proven, but unlike the bioavailability issue in clay, there has been significant amount of research with regards to using garlic as a feed supplement. I started the following discussion last year.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?458994-Garlic-and-the-Prevention-of-Disease
No proof - is that so? Make sure to read all of the various links that I have provided.
The creator of NLS has been using garlic in all of his food for many years, long before anyone was using garlic in a tropical fish food. Over the past decade the scientific research taking place in aquaculture appears to be proving what he has been saying all along.
With regards to clay, the following is an excerpt from a recent article in a trade magazine where Dr. Greg Aldrich PhD, a Research Associate Professor at Kansas State U, the president of Pet Food & Ingredient Technologly Inc., and one of the countries leading independent nutritionists specializing in foods, ingredients, and overall diet formulation in pet food stated;
Greg's bio can be found in the following link, for anyone that would like to more closely check his credentials. http://www.grains.k-state.edu/people/faculty/aldrich/
The vast majority of studies involving clay, and fish, have to do with the prevention of aflatoxin/mycotoxin toxicity, not for using as some kind of magic mineral supplementation. In commercial aquaculture where low quality feed that is largely made up from terrestrial based grains (corn, soybean, etc) I can understand the potential use as a binder for aflatoxins - but that shouldn't be an issue if one is feeding quality foods, such as Northfin - correct?
Which is why I stated previously that in my opinion, using clay in their feed was nothing more than a gimmick when Dainichi did it, as it continues to be when companies copy them. In pet food, including fish food, the main role of clay is that of a binding agent, for increased durability. Vitamin/mineral premixes are used to fill any nutritional gaps that may be present in the raw ingredients.
Actually John, without you knowing it in each PM that I responded I sent hidden coded subliminal messages in an attempt to PUSH the NLS on you. All your fish are belong to us.
Like usual, when someone runs out of intelligent things to say in a debate they attempt to make things personal by attacking the messenger, not the message. Perhaps you would like to share with the members here on MFK exactly what "most forums" I have been banned from?
You might also like to know that I was recommending NLS long before I had any vested interest in fish food. It was never about the $$$ to me. Also, over the many years that I have been doing this, I have never once started a discussion about NLS. Ever. Now, if some peep wants to start comparing the latest new player on the circuit with NLS, then that pretty much opens the door for others (such as myself) to join in. Anyone that isn't interested in expanding their knowledge base, no matter what brand they feed, can simply not click on the discussion - or hit the back button if they don't want to read what I have to say. I can only *push* items on an online forum to morons who are too dense to understand how to use their computer mouse. I don't think that has ever happened.
I understand that kelp can be certified as being organic, what I said was that there are no official rules governing the labeling of organic foods for pets. It's like referring to something as "natural", when it comes to tropical fish food most of these things are open to interpretation. For that matter, in Canada we don't even have to follow AAFCO terms or definitions, they are only "recommended" by the label standards set forth by the Competition Act. CFIA only seem to care about whether the food can introduce mad cow disease, or not. The governing bodies up here are a pathetic joke, don't even get me started on that subject.
http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/01229.html
As an example, I don't know if you state this on your fish food containers, but on your website, on your About Us page, you state;
For a guy who supposedly knows both sides of the business, and thinks that he can school me on everything, here's a little friendly tip for you. If you ever get to the point that you are shipping food to the USA, you might want to make sure that you don't have any type of "hormone free" statement on any of your products - because that can (and by some States will) be consideried false/inaccurate product information, and they will reject your food at their border. FYI - all fish contain natural growth hormones, hence any food that contains any type of fish product, such as fish meal, will contain hormones. Some State officials will let these things fly, others won't. I have seen fish food rejected by at least one State for this exact reason.
You speak of theory, and what's been proven, but unlike the bioavailability issue in clay, there has been significant amount of research with regards to using garlic as a feed supplement. I started the following discussion last year.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?458994-Garlic-and-the-Prevention-of-Disease
No proof - is that so? Make sure to read all of the various links that I have provided.
The creator of NLS has been using garlic in all of his food for many years, long before anyone was using garlic in a tropical fish food. Over the past decade the scientific research taking place in aquaculture appears to be proving what he has been saying all along.
With regards to clay, the following is an excerpt from a recent article in a trade magazine where Dr. Greg Aldrich PhD, a Research Associate Professor at Kansas State U, the president of Pet Food & Ingredient Technologly Inc., and one of the countries leading independent nutritionists specializing in foods, ingredients, and overall diet formulation in pet food stated;
Greg's bio can be found in the following link, for anyone that would like to more closely check his credentials. http://www.grains.k-state.edu/people/faculty/aldrich/
The vast majority of studies involving clay, and fish, have to do with the prevention of aflatoxin/mycotoxin toxicity, not for using as some kind of magic mineral supplementation. In commercial aquaculture where low quality feed that is largely made up from terrestrial based grains (corn, soybean, etc) I can understand the potential use as a binder for aflatoxins - but that shouldn't be an issue if one is feeding quality foods, such as Northfin - correct?
Which is why I stated previously that in my opinion, using clay in their feed was nothing more than a gimmick when Dainichi did it, as it continues to be when companies copy them. In pet food, including fish food, the main role of clay is that of a binding agent, for increased durability. Vitamin/mineral premixes are used to fill any nutritional gaps that may be present in the raw ingredients.
Actually John, without you knowing it in each PM that I responded I sent hidden coded subliminal messages in an attempt to PUSH the NLS on you. All your fish are belong to us.
"Actually John, without you knowing it in each PM that I responded I sent hidden coded subliminal messages in an attempt to PUSH the NLS on you. All your fish are belong to us."
LOL. Amazing......i just spit out my drink......
Another interesting article on the use of garlic from a guy who's bred a few fish
http://www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/carlic.shtml
LOL. Amazing......i just spit out my drink......
Another interesting article on the use of garlic from a guy who's bred a few fish
http://www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/carlic.shtml
Wow, so their can be certain clay that is actually bad for our fish? And it is used as a biding agent?? Would like to know why Clay is needed in Northfin?
Without taking sides regarding Northfin vs NLS, I've been following this thread. For the record, I acknowledge that Neil is more versed in fish nutrition and especially the fish food industry than I am. But also for the record, I've done my own food testing and research, had already done before I knew who Neil was, and, contrary to what someone said in this or another recent thread, most of what I know about fish nutrition is a result of my own reading in aquaculture and science sources, not from following Neil's posts. No disrespect to Neil and his expertise or his efforts to share information and inform people and not to say I haven't had some interesting discussions with him or that he's never posted research I haven't seen, or that I haven't occasionally asked and been interested to see his opinion of one or another ingredient, etc., exactly because I respect his knowledge of fish nutrition.
That said I have two fairly unrelated thoughts. One is my understanding of clay ingredients in fish food is from my own reading of exactly the same type of studies Neil brings up regarding their use in inhibiting mycotoxins/aflatoxins. In fact, other animals, like SA parrots, for example, are known to find 'clay licks' exactly for the reason that some of the seeds they eat in the wild have toxins that need to be neutralized. At one time it was thought they were utilizing the clay to obtain minerals otherwise missing in their diet, but more recent research into the items they eat and the toxins they contain, including certain tannins and alkaloids has led to this revised understanding or theory. For that matter, people in parts of the Andes are reported to use clay in much the same way. Without getting too verbose or technical, some believe parrots may also benefit from the high sodium in clay licks, so the jury is still out somewhat (at least according to what I've read) on whether there may be more than one benefit.
Now, I don't claim to be a biologist or expert here, and I'm not arguing that clay is a bad ingredient for fish food, no matter the percentage, a question that's not 100% settled in my mind. How clay compares to other ingredients used as binders, I don't know. Whether clay might have benefits in an otherwise nutritionally complete formula is still an open question for me up to this point. But my thought is if it's added to a fish food to deliver nutrients, aren't there better ways to do this, more natural to fish?
My other, unrelated, point is I've read all kind of arguments about this vs. that food and for me it comes down to what I see in my tanks with my fish. In that respect, I've found more than one food that gives me healthy fish that live long lives. As far as color, growth, spawning, etc. I still like more than one food and I find in my case some products give better color with some species and other products equal or better color in other species. So, at least ime, results may vary slightly with the type of fish you keep, meaning, again, you still have to determine what works best for you-- my opinion.
That said I have two fairly unrelated thoughts. One is my understanding of clay ingredients in fish food is from my own reading of exactly the same type of studies Neil brings up regarding their use in inhibiting mycotoxins/aflatoxins. In fact, other animals, like SA parrots, for example, are known to find 'clay licks' exactly for the reason that some of the seeds they eat in the wild have toxins that need to be neutralized. At one time it was thought they were utilizing the clay to obtain minerals otherwise missing in their diet, but more recent research into the items they eat and the toxins they contain, including certain tannins and alkaloids has led to this revised understanding or theory. For that matter, people in parts of the Andes are reported to use clay in much the same way. Without getting too verbose or technical, some believe parrots may also benefit from the high sodium in clay licks, so the jury is still out somewhat (at least according to what I've read) on whether there may be more than one benefit.
Now, I don't claim to be a biologist or expert here, and I'm not arguing that clay is a bad ingredient for fish food, no matter the percentage, a question that's not 100% settled in my mind. How clay compares to other ingredients used as binders, I don't know. Whether clay might have benefits in an otherwise nutritionally complete formula is still an open question for me up to this point. But my thought is if it's added to a fish food to deliver nutrients, aren't there better ways to do this, more natural to fish?
My other, unrelated, point is I've read all kind of arguments about this vs. that food and for me it comes down to what I see in my tanks with my fish. In that respect, I've found more than one food that gives me healthy fish that live long lives. As far as color, growth, spawning, etc. I still like more than one food and I find in my case some products give better color with some species and other products equal or better color in other species. So, at least ime, results may vary slightly with the type of fish you keep, meaning, again, you still have to determine what works best for you-- my opinion.
The ironic part in all of this is I haven't really said anythng overly negative about this line of food, even the clay issue is not a huge thing to me, I'm guessing the inclusion rate is only 2-3%, maybe less. I just found it to be gimmicky, just like Dainichi. I certainly don't believe that a small inclusion rate of Montmorillonite clay is going to hurt a fish. No reason for anyone to get hyperdefensive about my comments, I'm just trying to keep things real.
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