Official Off Topic Discussion Thread #1

[skjl47]

I don't want to be a bus driver or maintain order and I don't think it an easy job. I also can understand your feeling left without any tools to enforce consequences. You should have the tools to do your job, and there should be consequences for bullying, vandalism, violence etc, but an adult physically striking another persons child is not ok.

Hello; Having lived thru the situation I can tell the story as it happened. First thing was every use of corporal punishment had to be witnessed. Then concern about lawsuits restricted the use more, even where it was technically still legal. Eventually school systems banned corporal punishment.

So, teachers and bus drivers used other things to punish bad behavior. I think one of the first I tried was to take pages directly from the school boards booklet of rules for riding a bus. Whatever rule the student broke was required to be written some number of times. Maybe ten times the first occurrence. More copies the next and so on. I imagine some parents much like you didn't like such and threw their weight around. Soon enough a formula was discovered. Any form of punishment we could think off was banned because "punishment was unpleasant for the student".

Soon "punishment is unpleasant for the student" became the mantra for everything. No having a student stand in a corner. No writing on the chalkboard. Even in some schools a teacher could not speak harshly to a student. I recall near the end of my time as a teacher having been chewed out for such. I was filling in for one school year for a HS biology teacher on maternity leave. Between bells I saw a boy vulgarly verbally accosting two girls in the hallway. I yelled at him to stop, shut up and get away from the girls. He moved on.
Guess who got called into the office? Not the boy. It was me of course. Among the ironies was the assistant principal apologized for having to dress me down. He had been ordered to do so. The parents, unlike you, did not face me but sicked someone else on me. I forget the excuse exactly. Some convenient syndrome or other. The boys right to be vulgar and publicly accost schoolgirls was more important than the girls of the schools right to be left alone. Since I was new, I did not know he was allowed to roam the halls hurling insults at girls.

Back to immediately after the paddle was banned and I was working at a middle school. Soon enough the bullies figured out they had free reign on the playground. The smaller & more timid students were prey. I soon enough had a flock of such students who followed me around and stayed close during recess. Staying in my sight. It would have been comical if the cause was not such as it was. If I went inside to the restroom that gaggle of timid students would be waiting at the outside school door for my return.

I could not control my classroom. The rowdy types forced to be in school in order to keep a check coming in or ordered by a judge to be in school were given full grown adults to play games with. The rights of those few troublemakers superseded the rights of twenty to thirty some good kids to get an education. But hey you and like-minded folks were incensed about the idea of a teacher punishing "my kid."

I did strike a student one time. He was maybe 15 or 16 and came at me with the sharp end of a broken bottle. After ducking one swing of that jagged edge I side kicked his knee. Seemed to discourage him a lot. His custodians, an aunt & uncle, wanted me charged. Had a school board public hearing. The fact that he went into the principal's office swinging the broken bottle first before coming up the stairs toward my room pretty much spoiled his self-defense line of crud. Some of the other students had warned me he was looking for me. We met on the stairway landing. I was not charged, the student was kicked out of school in the end. The school board was merely going to suspend him two weeks, but my principal argued for a permanent suspension. My principal had also stared at the broken end of that bottle himself.

Met the boy and the uncle in a Kroger parking lot one nigh not long after. As I saw them coming, I slipped a full unbroken 10 oz bottle of Coca Cola from the carton i was loading in my trunk and got ready. The uncle reconsidered the situation for whatever reason and pulled the boy away. That has been the end of it for 40 years or so.

A sad thing was the uncle had two children of his own. I would pick them up on my bus. When the weather turned cold they would be without coats. I bought new coats and gave them to the kids. The older boy who came at me with the broken bottle was kicked out school in a different county. He wound up in my county to live with the uncle and started school. Our mutual bad luck that he was to ride my bus. Soon after he started riding I come to their stop. One of his smaller cousins was bleeding from his face. I found out it was the soon to be bottle wielder who had beaten him up at the bus stop. So, when I got them to school, I marched the soon to be bottle wielder into the principal's office and gave him a couple of whacks with a paddle.

That is how it started. But I get it. you prefer a larger boy continue to be able to beat up smaller children rather than a teacher use a paddle. Does not make sense to me but I do get it. Not sure but think the bottle wielder got moved along out of my county. Maybe he got lucky and wound up at a place run by folks with notions like yours and continued in his ways. Well heck, every place became that way didn't it.

 

[Cal Amari]

That's cute, who's bragging now? I don't really care how many coal miners you intimidated into submission, nor do I care what you think about my parenting abilities since you have witnessed none of them. However to clarify I didn't say I'd come after you physically, I said I'd come after you personally. I would have been the reason you lost your job. There are ways to solve problems without physical violence, and there are ways to discipline children wothout striking them. If you must know my son does get disciplined when he needs it. If you really want a brag then I'll talk about him, he's on the A honor roll in the high ability program at his school, in the fifth grade reading at a 9th grade level, on the student council, choir, and baseball team, and has chores and responsibilities expected of him at home and at school. He's also still an 11 year old kid and sometimes gets into trouble. When he does he is disciplined along with a conversation about his choices and the consequences of those actions.

I can understand things went from one extreme to the other, and as with most things in life somewhere in the middle likely lies the best option. You should have had some ways of disciplining or even removing kids from your bus. It's my opinion that physical force is not a tool to be given to bus drivers or children.

Edit- and for the record I didn't say no one should punish my child but me, I said no one should strike him. Now who's trying to paint who into a corner?

 

[Cal Amari]

I believe you were fully justified in self defense. I'm not sure how this story is supposed to show the use of the paddle solved anything, it appears from an outsider to only have escalated the situation. Again, you should have had other options for discipline and removal of such students. I don't pretend to know what you went through, sounds straight out of blackboard jungle or the Prinicipal. I did not attend such a violent school, nor do my kids.

 

[skjl47]

However to clarify I didn't say I'd come after you physically, I said I'd come after you personally. I would have been the reason you lost your job.

If you really want a brag then I'll talk about him, he's on the A honor roll in the high ability program at his school,

You should have had some ways of disciplining or even removing kids from your bus. It's my opinion that physical force is not a tool to be given to bus drivers or children.

Hello; You are so very wrong. Had it been possible to take a teacher's job back in the days when corporal punishment was legal for doing a legal act, do you not think such would have been done? In todays convoluted world such could be done. I'll wager there recently was a time a teacher could be punished for using a "wrong" pronoun instead of the traditional he or she. Maybe that pronoun stuff is still in effect some places. Corporal punishment was legal at the time so not grounds for dismissal.

Hello; About being on an honor roll at a school. I could tell several stories on that and grade related stories. One or two might do. One is when a packet of bumper stickers was delivered to me. The sticker read MY CHILD IS AN HONOR STUDENT AT H ____ JR HIGH. I wasted some time going over grades to determine which students in my home room had the best overall grades. I went to the school principal to see if my criteria were satisfactory. He gives me a look and says I was to pass out the stickers to every student in my home room. No criteria needed.
Another story is when I failed some students in a NC High school. Also happened in a KY middle school. The principals each called me in and informed me they would be changing the grades. I tried to point out that the students truly deserved the failing grades. Did not matter the two individual principals in two different states decided the grades of students they had not worked with at all.

Some teachers adopted a system in which they never gave a grade below a C +. Some teachers gave all A's. Such even happened in a few college level classes I took to keep my certification valid.

In one school we home room teachers had to make a list of our home room students for each course and then send the list to the teacher of that course, On some of the lists I would ad made up names such as Alfred E. Neuman and such. The imaginary students got A's same asthe real student names. Not saying such is going on at your child's school, but the odds are not against such. Grade inflation was rampant the last years of my career.

Best thing a parent can do is examine their child's work themselves. Use your own judgement as to their achievement level. After all the idea is to prepare them to go out into the real world, not merely get A's. Spend an hour or two alongside of the child while they are doing homework if you are fortunate enough to have a school which allows actual homework anymore. Let me state again in many, if not most, places a student can spend 12 years in school and be graduated while being essentially illiterate.
Check out colleges to see if they offer "remedial' courses in English and math. I taught freshman physical science at a small college. One student had me dragged to the dean's office because I required math be done by hand on exams. I wanted them to show all the steps used in equations not merely put down a answer. The dean came to my classroom and backed me up. She understood the necessity. Such backup was rare.

Last thing this time. How interesting you think a bus driver or a teacher be given the tools to maintain discipline. How do these things work in your child's school? Have you stood up for a teacher or you one who only shows up when you want something fixed. Why not make a list of acceptable punishments the teachers can use in your school. No help for me as I retired in 2004. How many PTA meetings or board meetings have you attended?

Do you only show up personally to threaten a teacher's job when things are not to your liking. I knew enough of those types.

 

[skjl47]

Hello; Just to try to get the discussion back on track and away from me as a teacher here are some quotes from a story about two folks already convicted for fraud in Minnesota schemes. As I stated earlier the issue is not about somehow taking food out of baby's mouths or some such, it is about ripping off the very programs. The food or childcare should have gone to actual children but the funds for those things was ripped off. I debated adding the link or not. There is only incidental mention of a prominent politician, but unlike others I have not been given much leeway with regard to TOS on this site. If any of the facts mentioned are in question, I suggest looking them up. I will try to make bold important things. I will also try to save the link in case the source becomes an issue



“A ringleader of the $250 million Minnesota welfare fraud scandal has been ordered to forfeit her Porsche, diamond jewelry, Luis Vuitton bags, and millions of dollars in bank accounts. An order from a judge just before New Year's Eve was the latest ignominy for Aimee Bock (pictured), 44, who prosecutors declared was behind one of the biggest fraud schemes of the pandemic era. The vast majority of the more than 57 people so far convicted in the case are part of Minnesota's Somali community - Bock is not - and the case has exploded onto the national stage.”

“In a preliminary court order, reviewed by the Daily Mail, Bock was ordered to forfeit $3,506,066 seized from a Bank of America account in the name of her nonprofit Feeding Our Future, along with $179,455 in a personal account. She was also ordered to give up her Porsche Panamera, around 60 laptops, iPads and iPhones found at three addresses, along with a diamond necklace, bracelet and earrings, and her Louis Vuitton purse and backpack. Bock was found guilty in March after a six-week trial on charges of wire fraud, conspiracy to commit wire fraud, bribery, and conspiracy to commit federal programs bribery. She is being held in Sherburne County Jail in Minnesota awaiting sentence.”

“The Feeding Our Future scandal was the worst of several welfare frauds that have engulfed Minnesota in the last few years. Around $250 million that came to the state from the federal government, ostensibly to buy meals for children from low-income families during the pandemic, was fraudulently obtained, according to the Department of Justice. Fraudsters falsely claimed to have used the money to serve 91 million meals, according to the DOJ. Instead, most of the money was siphoned off, put in shell companies, and spent on shopping sprees and property including in Kenya and the Maldives. Law enforcement has said only about $75 million of the $250 million has been recovered. Bock, a former schoolteacher and mother-of-two ran Feeding Our Future In 2019 it received $3 million in federal funding but by 2021 that had rocketed to nearly $200 million. In her trial, prosecutors showed the jury photographs of her and a boyfriend with a rented Lamborghini in Las Vegas.”

“At one point the Minnesota Department of Education (MDE) had tried to stop payments. But in 2021, Bock won a court case in which she accused the state of discriminating against her nonprofit because it worked with the Somali community. One witness later told her criminal trial that the ruling had been celebrated at a Somali banquet house in Minneapolis, and that Bock seemed untouchable and 'a god.'”

“Bock was tried alongside Salim Said, 36, a Somali-American restaurant owner, whose businesses received more than $30 million under the scheme. He was convicted of wire fraud and money laundering. During the pandemic Said claimed to be serving meals for 5,000 children every day, nearly 4 million in total. Bank records showed he went on shopping sprees at Nordstrom, spending up to $9,000 a month on clothes. He also had an indoor basketball court at his $1.1 million home. The stolen money came from the Federal Child Nutrition Program, which provides meals for children in school-based programs.”

 

[Cal Amari]

Well I'm nearly done with this, again you're making assumptions based on a few very short comments. Since you asked, I do know the teachers well, some of them go to our church, my wife went to high school with a couple of them, and we are active with our kids school. We meet in person with them a couple times a year and we discuss our children, both their behavior and their education. I do sit with them every evening while they do their homework, and I go over their spelling words with them, and quiz them on their vocab words, and review their math work with them. I have each of my children read with me on a regular basis, and thourhg summer and winter breaks I assign them books to read to keep them sharp. They will not be graduating with a feel good diploma, they are there to learn. I know it's easy to roll your eyes and assume parenting is not being done, I make the same assumption about other households without actually knowing what happens inside. As in most public schools these days punishments include detentions, suspensions, and expulsions, and it is not my job to develop a discipline plan for the school system. My oldest child is only 11 so their punishments also include losing recess time and extra assignments. His punishments at home include loss of time with his friends, loss of tv time or electronics time, which are both monitored and limited when he's not in trouble, and additional chores. This will be the end of my parenting discussion with you as I am not seeking your advice or approval.

 

[Ulu]

Break it up you two! ;-)
Go back to govt corruption. That’s the base of this issue.

Some kids have really ****ty parenting. You’re not going to correct that problem at the public school level.

You can only deal with it, by the school rules. Win or fail.

The dept of corrections has their own rules. They end up with these kids, later.

Unfortunately for teachers, they don’t always keep them.

 

[skjl47]

Well I'm nearly done with this, again you're making assumptions based on a few very short comments. Since you asked, I do know the teachers well, some of them go to our church, my wife went to high school with a couple of them, and we are active with our kids school. We meet in person with them a couple times a year and we discuss our children, both their behavior and their education. I do sit with them every evening while they do their homework, and I go over their spelling words with them, and quiz them on their vocab words, and review their math work with them. I have each of my children read with me on a regular basis, and thourhg summer and winter breaks I assign them books to read to keep them sharp. They will not be graduating with a feel good diploma, they are there to learn. I know it's easy to roll your eyes and assume parenting is not being done, I make the same assumption about other households without actually knowing what happens inside. As in most public schools these days punishments include detentions, suspensions, and expulsions, and it is not my job to develop a discipline plan for the school system. My oldest child is only 11 so their punishments also include losing recess time and extra assignments. His punishments at home include loss of time with his friends, loss of tv time or electronics time, which are both monitored and limited when he's not in trouble, and additional chores. This will be the end of my parenting discussion with you as I am not seeking your advice or approval.

Hello; I have been ready to move away from the school/punishment discussion and back to the topic of fraud. It is a shame you tried to paint me as an evil child abuser and some sort of brain-dead Fox News watcher who wants to take food from children. But you did and here we are. I doubt that few on here are confused about your intent.

I know about detentions, suspensions and expulsions. The only partly viable of the three is detention. Suspension & expulsions are almost as rare as hens teeth. The schools are funded by what is known of as ADA (Average daily Attendance). Principals and school boards do not want to expel students because it hurts the attendance averages. I worked in five different school systems in three different states. First few decades in KY until i got enough time in to have a vested pension. Few of the schools had the capacity for in school detention.

Of the ones which did do in school detention the capacity was pretty much always less than the need. The available number of seats was small and filled quickly. Add to that a principal who wanted fewer detention slips written. He did not ask if the bad student behavior cited on the detention slips actually happened. Merely demanded that fewer slips be sent to the office. For the teachers who did not yet have enough time in I am sure the threat was enough. For me who had already worked out enough for a pension in another state the threat fell short. He could change the failing grades my students had justly earned and he could file 13 my detention slips. Did not change the fact of general chaos in his school.

More than ready to discuss the stealing of my tax dollars some more.

 

[skjl47]

Did anyone else catch the Steelers-Ravens game on Sunday? How is Aaron Rodgers so old and still preforming so well?

Hello; finished watching the game today. it was close but Rodgers & the Steelers pulled it off. Did not expect two missed field goals at the end.

 

[skjl47]

MSN

Hello; a change of topic. Early in the read I though it was going to be a story about a horse. turns out to be much more. seems a pack of federally protected grey wolves may be killing livestock and have been doing so for over a year. Sometimes the kill is eaten. Seems sometimes just killed and left to rot. I have no real answer to the killing and not eating but suspect something drove them away.

I get the wolves are protected but how are the animal owners compensated? Maybe the old times had good reasons to kill off wolf packs? The wolves are going closer into residential areas.