Over-dosing Prime reduces oxygen??

[bigspizz]

Having talked to BigSpizz and clarified the mood in which I am presenting information…

Stepping away and considering how this ongoing debate would look to others…

I can completely understand that regardless of detail… I’ve shared my .02 well enough…

I do appreciate this thread as it motivated me to read a lot of information, consider a lot of points, have several in-depth conversations… all which resulted in me learning some things…

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this process by supplying information, challenging information or simply tolerating us eating up web space

I would like to say that if you are able to read this thread with a non judgmental open mind… A lot of good information has come out in this thread…

I think one conclusion that we can all agree on despite which side of the debate we chose… Prime is a great product and we would encourage you to consider using it

PS - Do not mix Prime and water and then drink it… not even off the top…

Very well put! I could not agree more. Both arguments have received equal support. It is up to Seachem, to be more specific, on a public, and more regular basis. I am not afraid of being wrong, we all know I have been. There are some great posts in this thread. If nothing else, I enjoyed the mental stimulation of all of this.

 

[Seachem]

I am skeptical of posting in this thread based on the negativity and lack of tactfulness of some of the comments. However, there are some unwarranted attacks here that need to be addressed.
First let me start by saying thank you to all who have defended Seachem and our products in this thread. We depend on people like you in times where these types of threads are not brought to out attention. I would also like to point out that the two responses received from our product support representative were from the same individual so I am not sure where the supposed discrepancy lies. At any rate, the individual who answered is an adult (not a high schooler) who actually has a Bachelor's degree in Biology, as do all of the members of our technical support team. I do apologize if the answer was not quite as detailed as one would have liked, but perhaps the question should have a been a little bit more detailed? At any rate, Prime is a reducing agent as are MANY other products that are available in this hobby. Prime has been around for a few decades, so we do have much experience with using and dosing this product. We do know that at 5X the recommended dosage, all aquariums will not have any adverse effects. A reducing agent has the capability of reducing a lot of different elements in the aquarium. Prime has a preference for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, etc. Essentially, if none of these things are present in the water, the reducing agent will bind to other things and reduce them instead. Oxygen is one of these things I am referring to. Likely, an individual will not be overdosing Prime unless that have some of the above mentioned elements available, correct? The amount that one person can dose is going to ultimately be dependent upon their water parameters. We all know how circumstantial this hobby is Something may work for one person, but not the next. Based on our testing, we are confident that our dosage can be safely increased up to 5X the recommended dosage amount without killing anything. If we were not confident in this, we would certainly not put this in writing. Here is a link to one of the articles available on our website where we do mention the whole overdosing aspect if you are interested:

http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Ammonia_Management.pdf

Prime does break down and after about 24 hours it dissipates from the water so there is no chance of build up. I am not sure how far I can go into this based on proprietary grounds, but I will definitely ask my Reasearch Director on Monday if there is any additional information that I can provide without revealing trade secrets. It is now Friday at 6:00pm and I am going home. I will be glad to answer any specific questions you have about any of our products on Monday! Hope everyone has a great weekend!

 

[bigspizz]

That pdf, mentions the overdosing of Amguard, not Prime. It says "Overdosing should be avoided, since excess will react with oxygen, if no free ammonia is present" Also from the link "The biological filter removes ionized ammonia, and, provided, it works efficiently, does so to the extent that free ammonia is virtually undetectable."

So in conclusion, Prime should not be overdosed due to it's capability of crippling a tanks oxygen supply, (assuming it is a healthy tank).

5x Over the recommended dose has been tested and proved. 5x would not qualify as "overdose" because overdose means "too much"

Lastly "dissipation" That focuses on the "buildup" issue. Where does it go if it "dissipates"? In our homes? Does it just cease to exist when you guys say it does? To say it "dissipates" is to say it, "still exists" (and there goes the biodegrading thing) It just does not exist in the water. How does it get where it ends up?


I am not trying to sell a product, nor am I at work...This is my leisure time. I try not to be overly tactful in my leisure time. I do however admit it got "heated" and it takes two to tango, and I was one of those two, however, I never "attacked Prime" nor recommended anything other than using it exclusively. "As directed".

 

[ErikFromNJ]

Great read fellas!

 

[coeus]

5x would not qualify as "overdose" because overdose means "too much"

you really jump on misuse of vocabulary, by overdose maybe he meant over the perscribed amount, if i double the prescription the doctor gives me for those oxycodons i wont have any real side effects from doing it once and i didnt overdose, but it certainly wasnt what was recommended by the perscriber

seachem=doctor
prime=oxys

 

[BTB0923]

Seachem, thank you for taking the time to join our discussion. The intention of this thread is not to attack the integrity of your product, but simply gain further knowledge of how to properly use it.

Prime does break down and after about 24 hours it dissipates from the water so there is no chance of build up. I am not sure how far I can go into this based on proprietary grounds, but I will definitely ask my Reasearch Director on Monday if there is any additional information that I can provide without revealing trade secrets.

^^ I for one am extremely curious about this process, and any information you could provide about how this is accomplished would definitely be much appreciated.

 

[swede]

I am skeptical of posting in this thread based on the negativity and lack of tactfulness of some of the comments. However, there are some unwarranted attacks here that need to be addressed.
First let me start by saying thank you to all who have defended Seachem and our products in this thread. We depend on people like you in times where these types of threads are not brought to out attention. I would also like to point out that the two responses received from our product support representative were from the same individual so I am not sure where the supposed discrepancy lies. At any rate, the individual who answered is an adult (not a high schooler) who actually has a Bachelor's degree in Biology, as do all of the members of our technical support team. I do apologize if the answer was not quite as detailed as one would have liked, but perhaps the question should have a been a little bit more detailed? At any rate, Prime is a reducing agent as are MANY other products that are available in this hobby. Prime has been around for a few decades, so we do have much experience with using and dosing this product. We do know that at 5X the recommended dosage, all aquariums will not have any adverse effects. A reducing agent has the capability of reducing a lot of different elements in the aquarium. Prime has a preference for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, etc. Essentially, if none of these things are present in the water, the reducing agent will bind to other things and reduce them instead. Oxygen is one of these things I am referring to. Likely, an individual will not be overdosing Prime unless that have some of the above mentioned elements available, correct? The amount that one person can dose is going to ultimately be dependent upon their water parameters. We all know how circumstantial this hobby is Something may work for one person, but not the next. Based on our testing, we are confident that our dosage can be safely increased up to 5X the recommended dosage amount without killing anything. If we were not confident in this, we would certainly not put this in writing. Here is a link to one of the articles available on our website where we do mention the whole overdosing aspect if you are interested:

http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Ammonia_Management.pdf

Prime does break down and after about 24 hours it dissipates from the water so there is no chance of build up. I am not sure how far I can go into this based on proprietary grounds, but I will definitely ask my Reasearch Director on Monday if there is any additional information that I can provide without revealing trade secrets. It is now Friday at 6:00pm and I am going home. I will be glad to answer any specific questions you have about any of our products on Monday! Hope everyone has a great weekend!

You're welcome. Prime is great. May I have some coupons please

 

[sostoudt]

Seachem, thank you for taking the time to join our discussion. The intention of this thread is not to attack the integrity of your product, but simply gain further knowledge of how to properly use it.

i second that.

my main curio for this thread is i seem to remember when i started using prime(4 yrs ago), a recommendation of adequate airaetion during over dosing for ammonia toxicity on the bottle. i checked my bottle and there no mention of that. i could be mistaken and may in fact be thinking of amquel(but i have only used it 2 times as i prefer prime). i was wondering if i had been giving unnecessary warning to people about using prime for ammonia problems.

2 more questions while your here.

is there any advantage of alpha over prime besides concentration and the sleek look?

whats the shelf life of prime? is prime ruined if left uncapped for a long time?
(ok i lied its more then two, you did give me a weekend).

can plants use they cyclic amine the ammonia is converted into? what about the detoxed nitrites and nitrates?

from some post(of questionable source) i have read, lead me to believe the detoxified nitrates and nitrites are only detoxified for a limited amount of time. is this correct?

also i seen this on dr fosters

. When used during cycling, Prime enhances nitrate removal

how does prime enhance nitrate removal, assuming this is a freshwater tank and the only means of nitrate elimination is water changes(unless prime creates another way)?


may as well get them all out there
what is the cyclic amine prime turns the ammonia is turned in to?

what is the method of detoxification of nitrites? and nitrates?

 

[sostoudt]

ok i answered the ones on nitrates and removal to a degree.
what is the method of detoxification of nitrites? and nitrates?

. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.

what bacteria could be responsible for the removing nitrates, i thought the bacteria necessary for denitrification need a anaerobic environment, which most fresh tanks lack? unless nitrate removal is mainly reported in marine tanks.
i ask the above question while realizing it could easily be the other two methods listed.

 

[Diogenes]

I'm not sure about prime specifically, but amquel has a similar mechanism, and I was trying to research why I had a permanent .25 ppm NH4 when I was using Amquel (turns out it just fools the test. NH4 is rendered inert at that amount but still tests +), but I did find something in the literature on the amquel site that admitted that DURING the actual chemical reaction, O2 is used and that temporaily lowers the amount of dissolved O2 in the water. I would imagine that if you water is turning over, that molecular O2 is replaced shortly thereafter.