"Overstock" Successfully!

[cchhcc]

Oversticking Africans to reduce aggression is a long accepted standard practice. How is that any different in regards to CA/SA's?

As far as the "double speak" you refer to "naturally providing for an unnatural situation", it's nothing I do differently for my tanks that aren't overstocked. The point I was trying to make is that a lot of people think you should do "unnatural" things to make the fishes uncomfortable to reduce aggression (lower temps, no cover/hiding spots, no live feeders, etc.). I believe the opposite is better for the fishes, making them "happier", which means less stress, which means one less reason for them to flip out. I could've picked a better way to explain it than in the original post, but I think you get my point. My apologies.

It is not, in my opinion "unnatural" to have more than two or three big aggro cichla in the same tank. After all, they all live together in the wild. And before someone says "yeah, but there's a lot more water in the wild", at the end of the day we ALL keep fishes in tiny glass boxes too small for them. The difference between 2 fishes in a 125 and 10 fishes in a 240 is miniscule compared to their natural habitats (millions of gallons). We're talking tiny fractions of a percent.

As long as the water quality stays excellent and the fishes are healthy and not killing one another, what's the problem with overstocking if it allows you to have a beautiful, active tank? I'd rather have my tank with all it's different personalities any day than a tank with two fishes hiding behind a piece of driftwood all day.

Cheers,
Kevin

If you've seen rift lake cichlids underwater, you know that their "natural" population densities are high. The same isn't the case with the all cichlids.

All in all, though, as long as the tan is actually large enough for one fish to "naturally and healthfully" live out its entire life cycle, there's no reason you couldn't add several more. Ten or twenty fully grown, foot sized fish in a properly maintained 500 isn't overstocking at all. A given pair has plenty of room to take over a portion of the tank, and the others can temporarily restrict their wanderings. The problems come when that 500 never materializes!

 

[terd ferguson]

Yes..... Definitely lock it if there are any posts that aren't synonomous with the original post.

I know you're being funny, but don't ruin it for the original poster and all those who will find this thread later through searching. Threads like these can contain volumes of good information and tips. If it gets locked or removed, all that will be gone forever.

And, I think the best part about threads like these is that even though we may disagree on stocking and certain other aspects of fishkeeping, we can always learn from each other's methods. At the end of the day, live and let live, etc..


Here's another tip that can help out. A UV Sterilizer can provide two benefits for an overstocked tank. First, by killing desease causing microorganisms and parasites (like ich). The more fishes you have, theoretically, that's more hosts for a desease or parastie to take hold of. Secondly, in my case in particular, when you feed a lot and have some messy fishes like Oscars who push more food out of their gills than they put down their throats, these excess nutrients can cause algea problems. A UV Sterilizer can help with this as well.

I got a 36 watt Coralife from Big Al's for $160 after an ich outbreak. I caught the ich early and treated it with heat and salt as per the thread here. But, sadly, I still lost a beautiful Green Terror to the ich. Consider the UV Sterilizer as a sort of cheap insurance policy. I only wish I had it before the ich. An added benefit is that if you're having water clarity issues, it'll totally clear up in a couple of days with the UV.

 

[terd ferguson]

If you've seen rift lake cichlids underwater, you know that their "natural" population densities are high. The same isn't the case with the all cichlids.

All in all, though, as long as the tan is actually large enough for one fish to "naturally and healthfully" live out its entire life cycle, there's no reason you couldn't add several more. Ten or twenty fully grown, foot sized fish in a properly maintained 500 isn't overstocking at all. A given pair has plenty of room to take over a portion of the tank, and the others can temporarily restrict their wanderings. The problems come when that 500 never materializes!

You are totally right, good advice. The Planet Earth 'Freshwater' episode was awesome at showing Africans' habitats. To expand on what you said, a tank needs to be at least big enough for your largest fish (when full grown) to be able to turn aroud without touching glass. And, of course, bigger is always better when it comes to tanks.

 

[John Rambo]

terd, that uv is a good idea. I've been thinking about trying it, wondering how much it really helps with disease

I was also wondering how crouded a tank has to be in order for it to be called overstocked. Just cuz multiple fish live in a tank without enough space for their territory doesnt mean its overstocked. an adult umbee and a festae in a 360 gallon still doesnt leave enough space for territory, but I dont think its really overstocked.

 

[Wolf3101]

The number one item on the list for overstocked tank requirments should be a constant drip system. Combine this with a sizable wet/dry sump system....yes thats right you just heard the anti-sump master recomend one. The reason is simple...you have a far greater area for potential BB (benificial bacteria) to develope to match the fish load. This also makes the constant drip system a lot easier to build without bieng an eyesore in the tank.

 

[Cich_lids]

Scientific proof of what part? You quoted several things…

well I wonder if anyone has done any type of study on overstocking fish in the aquarium stress levels Vs. stress levels in a normally stocked tank. everyone assumes the fish will be stressed if they are overstocked but I wonder if there is any proof of that. I am not sure why a tank with 10 fish that chase each other would be anymore stressed than a tank with two fish who constantly chase each other.

 

[terd ferguson]

The number one item on the list for overstocked tank requirments should be a constant drip system. Combine this with a sizable wet/dry sump system....yes thats right you just heard the anti-sump master recomend one. The reason is simple...you have a far greater area for potential BB (benificial bacteria) to develope to match the fish load. This also makes the constant drip system a lot easier to build without bieng an eyesore in the tank.

This is a great piece of advice. A constant drip system if done correctly can nearly eliminate the need for water changes. And the wet/dry sump is a neccessity as far as I'm concerned with a big tank full of big fishes. In addition to adding to the total water volume, the biological filtration (like Wolf said) is far greater than you could get with a canister or two. And, less waste means better water. Better water means less stress. Less stress can mean less aggression.

 

[terd ferguson]

well I wonder if anyone has done any type of study on overstocking fish in the aquarium stress levels Vs. stress levels in a normally stocked tank. everyone assumes the fish will be stressed if they are overstocked but I wonder if there is any proof of that. I am not sure why a tank with 10 fish that chase each other would be anymore stressed than a tank with two fish who constantly chase each other.

Playing devil's advocate to your post, think about this. While on the surface what you're saying seems logical, with a greater number of stressed fishes (10 chasing compared to 2 chasing) comes a higher probability of a fish going on a killing spree (10 oppurtunities to flip out versus 2).

But, I don't have any paperwork to back that up.

Here's another tip to help with fish waste in an overstocked tank. If you have a wet/dry sump (and you should with this kind of setup), use a compartment in the sump (or create one if you don't have one and you have the room) to keep a bunch of floating plants. The fish waste is food for the plants and the plants produce oxygen for the fishes. It's a win-win. Alternately, use live plants in your tank if your fishes won't eat them or constantly uproot them.

I'm not big into fully planted tanks and don't know a lot about the particulars but I think I read somewhere that at night, oxygen levels will be lower in heavily planted tanks. So be sure to have plenty of aeration and/or surface agitation and/or air pumps/bubbles to compensate.

 

[cchhcc]

Regarding "scientific proof," there are lots of institutional studies on fish behavior, stressors, etc. You just have to search them out (or participate in some of them like some of us already have!). I would not consider any online public forum (with the exception of maybe one or two sites) to be a suitable substitute for anything resembling a scientific source.

There are all kinds of ways to affect behavior, and many of them have pathological consequences. Overcrowding is but one of them. The absence of a sandy substrate, for instance, is a stressor for eartheaters and their Central American counterparts (Astatheros species primarily). There are many others, big and small.

If the final goal is to provide for the welfare of our fish, we should endeavor to provide them the most suitable environment possible. Unfortunately, we often find our own, often selfish, desires get in the way of what's best for the fish.

 

[Bderick67]

Bderick67 - Thats a nice mix, and nice pics. Which of the 10 points are you using or are there any different things you are doing that are not on the list?

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108403

Basically I beleive its luck of the draw, my combo has worked well and even adding new fish has not been a problem. I've had three different convict spawns, without much problems also.

Here is my original 150 gallon cichlid tank, which was set up in June '07

It's 96" x 18" x 21" and is filtered with a large w/d sump and a xp3. The occupants are 10" & 6" Jack Dempsey pair, 6-7" wild Red Devil pair, 3-4" Firemouth pair, 3-4" Convict pair, 8" paratilapia polleni, 6" Green terror(f), 2x 4" pink convicts(both males) and a couple 5" stripped rapheal cats. All added at the same time.

The only real problem fish was the polleni, he was very territorial and ended up getting a beaten by the large dempsey or RD. Other changes were swapping male JD for another(same size), exchanged one pink convict male for female, added vieja bif @ 3", added 6x 2-3" jags, added 3x "petsmart" trimacs @ 2-3". Had male FM die(cause unknown). This tank stocking ran fine without any other incidents until I took it down 2 weeks ago.