Pic of my Tree and rock background.

[wizzin]

as I've been looking into this too, here are some interesting resources.

As for the foam, I have bought it from Vandykes taxidermy supply:
http://www.vandykestaxidermy.com/subcategory/129/

I found this article on concrete for aquariums:
http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/concrete.html

here is the link to Thorite from Thoro products.
http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_concrete.htm

UK based concrete aquarium liner
http://www.metflex.uk.com/products/metflex_aquarium.htm

I've seen articles on using quickcrete in tanks, and it is not a good idea. quickcrete uses portland cement, which is toxic.

enjoy.

 

[Jawbone]

when using the styrofoam do you have to worry about your fish piciking at it and tearing it up, or did you treat it with some sort of hardening paint?

The foam is not exposed. It will be completely covered with pigmented concrete.

 

[Jawbone]

as I've been looking into this too, here are some interesting resources.

As for the foam, I have bought it from Vandykes taxidermy supply:
http://www.vandykestaxidermy.com/subcategory/129/

I found this article on concrete for aquariums:
http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/concrete.html

here is the link to Thorite from Thoro products.
http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_concrete.htm

UK based concrete aquarium liner
http://www.metflex.uk.com/products/metflex_aquarium.htm

I've seen articles on using quickcrete in tanks, and it is not a good idea. quickcrete uses portland cement, which is toxic.

enjoy.

Quickcrete is not toxic. I've used it before along with hundreds of other people for thier backgrounds. The problem is the concrete WILL raise the PH. This can be significant. Thats why it is imperative that you properly cure the cement and soak the piece in the tank doing frequent water changes until the concrete cures and the ph stabilizes. After that it is fine. Then you can add your fish.

 

[wizzin]

I don't want to argue too much, but if typical concrete is safe for fish, then why do public aquariums not use it? Why would there be a "fish safe concrete" if all concrete were fish safe? A lot of materials that are non toxic to humans are toxic to fish. I wouldn't put anything in my tank that wasn't created with fish in mind.

I'm sure a lot of species do fine, but if you're keeping expensive fish, I wouldn't do anything to risk their death. I know lots of people have done it. Doesn't mean it's right. While the contents of the concrete themselves may not be toxic, it's the way that commercial concrete is handled that raises concern. The mix is often trucked to the bagging site and the trucks can be used to haul fertilizer and all sorts of other nice things. The fact is that concrete can easily be contaminated by other materials not intended to be in the mix. Read the bag. It says that. It also says that portland cement dust is toxic.

here is an article on "about" regarding using concrete in aquariums.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:ZGuvX0tIHREJ:saltaquarium.about.com/cs/liverocksetup/a/aa111901g.htm+using+concrete+in+aquarium&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

Again, you'd probably not have a problem, but do you want to risk it? I plan on using concrete, but sealing it with this epoxy paint intended for use in fish ponds.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11733/cid/3035

 

[Jawbone]

I don't want to argue too much, but if typical concrete is safe for fish, then why do public aquariums not use it? Why would there be a "fish safe concrete" if all concrete were fish safe? A lot of materials that are non toxic to humans are toxic to fish. I wouldn't put anything in my tank that wasn't created with fish in mind.

I'm sure a lot of species do fine, but if you're keeping expensive fish, I wouldn't do anything to risk their death. I know lots of people have done it. Doesn't mean it's right. While the contents of the concrete themselves may not be toxic, it's the way that commercial concrete is handled that raises concern. The mix is often trucked to the bagging site and the trucks can be used to haul fertilizer and all sorts of other nice things. The fact is that concrete can easily be contaminated by other materials not intended to be in the mix. Read the bag. It says that. It also says that portland cement dust is toxic.

here is an article on "about" regarding using concrete in aquariums.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:ZGuvX0tIHREJ:saltaquarium.about.com/cs/liverocksetup/a/aa111901g.htm+using+concrete+in+aquarium&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

Again, you'd probably not have a problem, but do you want to risk it? I plan on using concrete, but sealing it with this epoxy paint intended for use in fish ponds.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11733/cid/3035

First I dont want you to think of this as an arguement because I dont. More of informative discussion. As for public aquariums using concrete, they do and plently of it. For example, I spent some time with Ripleys Aquarium in Myrtle Beach, SC. Their base for all their tanks included very large shark display are concrete. Many structures within the displays they have are carved concrete. For Example they have a large shipwreck in the shark exihibit it is concrete. Many offshore contractors that are employed to fix reefs after hurricaines and such use concrete based rocks to repair and rejuvenate the existing live reef rock. Many reef aquarists make concrete rock and seed it so it becomes their live rock in their reef instead of buying live rock which is taken from the oceans. As I stated before its not the concrete that can be harmfull its the curing process that will raise the PH that will be harmful. Once the curing process is completely done the concrete is totally safe. A further example of this is Ripleys Ray tank,which I think we can all agree rays are very sensitive to water quality, is almost completely made from poured concrete but it was properly cured prior to stocking. The reason people use epoxy paints and waterproofers is more of a quick fix. What I mean is by sealing the concrete you prevent the concrete from leaking the alkalines that raise the ph. This does work great no doubt. But for me not needing to quickly stock my tank, I can wait the few weeks to completely cure my concrete and then stock. My point of all this is to say concrete itself is not toxic when completely cured but can be not so fish friendly if used in a tank wheen it is not cured. The reason there is so much bad press on net about concrete is because to many people did not wait the appropriate amount of time to cure their concrete properly. Then the kill off their fish and say oh concrete is not fish safe. This is a wildly false statement. Completely cured concrete is totally fish safe once the ph has stablized.

 

[Jawbone]

Another quick note, The reason I use this method of complete cure and not just seal the concrete with epoxy paint is with many fish, especially the monsters that are being kept by members here, can wear down or get through this epoxy paint over time. If this happens the alkalines that are in the concrete will begin to leech which will raise the ph of the tank. Then the problem occurs where the fish in the tank are exposed to quickly raising ph changes. This is why I prefer to be patient and let the concrete completely cure which elimanates the alkalines, makes a very strong concrete, and makes the concrete completely safe. You never have to worry your monster fish will disrupt the thin layer of epoxy holding back the alkalines waiting to raise your ph in your tank.

 

[wizzin]

I agree, this conversation is useful, not bad. I think we are probably in agreement that the concrete contents are safe once cured. For example, the portland cement is toxic in dust form, but once cured is not. I guess my point is that unless care is taken in the transport of the ingredients, it could be a contaminated batch you're dealing with. Would you agree, that it's probably safer to buy portland cement and mix it with clean aquarium sand rather than just buying some quikrete from lowes?

I actually think the painting part is a way to kill two birds with one stone. 1, you're sealing the crete to prevent leaching. 2, you're coloring it to look more realistic. The product I posted comes in shades of gray and brown, so you could really make a very convincing display using that paint. By sealing it after curing, I would think you would eliminate any chance of contamination. The paint isnt that expensive, and I'd think of it as insurance. That's my plan anyway.

BTW, the tree and rock bkg is great! Good job!

I also found this product called "watercrete" that apparently cures sets in 5 minutes underwater and can be used in a fish setting without removing the fish. It has no calcium chloride in it and is completely safe for drinking water sources etc. I've only found it available in Australia though.

Here's a link:
http://www.highwayhardware.com.au/new_product/2002_04/quickset.htm

 

[Jawbone]

I agree, this conversation is useful, not bad. I think we are probably in agreement that the concrete contents are safe once cured. For example, the portland cement is toxic in dust form, but once cured is not. I guess my point is that unless care is taken in the transport of the ingredients, it could be a contaminated batch you're dealing with. Would you agree, that it's probably safer to buy portland cement and mix it with clean aquarium sand rather than just buying some quikrete from lowes?

I actually think the painting part is a way to kill two birds with one stone. 1, you're sealing the crete to prevent leaching. 2, you're coloring it to look more realistic. The product I posted comes in shades of gray and brown, so you could really make a very convincing display using that paint. By sealing it after curing, I would think you would eliminate any chance of contamination. The paint isnt that expensive, and I'd think of it as insurance. That's my plan anyway.

BTW, the tree and rock bkg is great! Good job!

I do agree it probably is safer to mix your own concrete. With this in mind I've always used quickcrete products in my displays but I've always done a very thourgh curing process which does take weeks sometimes longer depending on how huge the scape is. So I would think this would elimante potential contaiments. This curing process involes many freshwater changes. The painting does work great and can create realistic looking scapes. I use pigmented non toxic cement dyes for my coloring. Once I'm done with this scape I plan on posting a tutorial of how to do it with pics to hopefully save anyone from killing their fish in the process. I guess I got a little defensive when I read the "quickcrete is toxic" thing. There are many different ways that work great to make scapes. Maybe when your done with your method you could post a tutorial on your way. This way members here have different options to creating scapes and we all can benefit from other peoples methods. By the way thanks for the kind words on my background.

 

[Jawbone]

I also found this product called "watercrete" that apparently cures sets in 5 minutes underwater and can be used in a fish setting without removing the fish. It has no calcium chloride in it and is completely safe for drinking water sources etc. I've only found it available in Australia though.

Here's a link:
http://www.highwayhardware.com.au/new_product/2002_04/quickset.htm

I just checked this out. Very interesting. It properties very closely resemble epoxy putty which works very similar to this product. I have used epoxy putty underwater before doing repairs to fiberglass tanks that were 20,000 gallons. This would be a good product for scapes but the 5 min working time would make me nervous. I take much longer than that. By the way I see your from Pittsburgh. I'm in Youngstown. Whats going on with the black and gold. I'm a fan of the Steelers.

 

[wizzin]

Steelers? Who are the Steelers? They can't find the goal line. That's what's going on with them!

I watched the first 3 games and then boycotted them. I don't have time for football anyway.

have you been to the pittsburgh PPG aquarium? They're building a new outdoor exhibit. Very nice looking. I took my daughter about 3 weeks ago. I think they used to have gigas in the big amazon tank, but it just had 2 aros and about 10 MASSIVE pacu and 2 about 54" red tail cats.

I will post a tutorial on the bkg. Except it's pretty much just what you're doing. I'm just doing a thin layer of cement and then paint. I agree that curing for several weeks and water curing is absolutely necessary!!!

I was looking for a way to produce these with plastics too. I couldn't find much, but learned that polyurethane and polyester resin is not to be used in aquaria. Polystyrene and polyethelene are ok, but they have to be melted and blown or rotation cast which is not a very DIY thing. Acrylic would be the way to go, but again, casting is an issue. Have you done anything like that before? Most aquaria decor is polyethelene or polystyrene and mass produced by companies with facilities to do it.