Picked up some Marble Veija Fenestratus juveniles

[Dennis T.]

Seen all of that, and then some. The Lake Catemaco strain does not look anything like the marbled version. I've seen them in person, and many just like them online. Also, there is no doubt in my mind that the breeder in AU had a pair that carried this gene, but again, there was no provenance back to the wild, or anywhere else.

If you have provenance back to the wild, great. If not, then you have an aquarium strain of who knows what.

Do you have any links to the wild version?

As with many other cichlids (I've kept many African cichlids), the ones that I have, are very likely selectively bred for certain traits. But that doesn't prove that they are a cross. It's like Eureka Red Peacocks. They were selectively bred from Swallow tails to produce a stronger red strain.

Halfmoon Bettas look nothing like the wild Betta Splendens. Are they a cross or hybrid?

Your analogy puts doubt to anyone who buys fish from a fishshop. Are you going to say someone's Neon Tetra is an "aquarium strain of who knows what" because they have no "provenanced back to the wild?"

Do you have any "provenance" that someone crossed two Veija to get a Marbled strain?

 

[Ogertron3000]

If they did originate here in australia they would either be line bred or a fish carrying the marble genes. As @RD stated its basically impossible for an average person to import a fish from anywhere in the wild. The registered importers generally focus on basic fast turnover fish , I was talking to the LFS the other day asking about getting some more unusual fish and he said it can possibly be done but if it's not on the importers regular stock list it would cost a fortune and take 6 months to import and get through the QT procedure.
Either way, it's a nice fish and if you are happy with it then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Dennis T.]

If they did originate here in australia they would either be line bred or a fish carrying the marble genes. As @RD stated its basically impossible for an average person to import a fish from anywhere in the wild. The registered importers generally focus on basic fast turnover fish , I was talking to the LFS the other day asking about getting some more unusual fish and he said it can possibly be done but if it's not on the importers regular stock list it would cost a fortune and take 6 months to import and get through the QT procedure.
Either way, it's a nice fish and if you are happy with it then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

The Marble Fenestratus in Australia can be a very simple explanation. I suspect that the fish they got were F1 or likely a few generations from the wild. (Which would then be considered captive bred) ...Then exported to AU. The AU breeder breeds the fish and the fry displays the piebold/marble trait which may be a recessive gene.

 

[Ogertron3000]

I think that's the simplest explanation and makes sense.
It's actually cool if something unusual originated here, makes a nice change from 50 generations worth of drab inbred fish for sale, we don't normally get cool stuff here!

 

[RD.]

Your analogy puts doubt to anyone who buys fish from a fishshop Are you going to say someone's Neon Tetra is an "aquarium strain of who knows what" because they have no "provenanced back to the wild?"

Often, yes, at least when it comes to cichlids. There is only a bazillion hybrid strains currently in the market. Piebald, OB, albino, different geographical variants sliced & diced along the way, you name it. This has been taking place for decades, and many of these hybrid strains have originated in Asia, including many of the CA cichlid crosses, specifically from Thailand, where they use these fish in their flowerhorn breeding programs. Fish such as the red spot hartwegi aka Pranburi red spot vieja. So not a huge leap to suspect "marbled" cichlids from Thailand, as possibly not being pure. I have seen a sheet ton of hybrid cichlids come out of Asia over the years.

I suspect that the fish they got were F1 or likely a few generations from the wild. (Which would then be considered captive bred) ...Then exported to AU.

I just explained how difficult it is to import fish into AU, not just wild fish, but any fish. The chances of those fish being F1, or anything remotely close to that, is almost zero. Hence them originally being sold as simply an aquarium strain. If a vendor in AU can call something F1, or anywhere close to that, they would have. You can suspect what you want, but that doesn't prove anything.

I have nothing to prove or disprove here, I was simply commenting on your earlier post, where you stated these fish are a naturally occurring morph. To that I simply said that I am not convinced. Over the years I have seen no real proof to support marbled fenestratus as being pure, especially those coming from Thailand.

There have been lots of fenestratus collected from Lake Catemaco, going back many years, and that strain does not look anything like the marbled version. That, and out of all of those fish that do have provenance back to the Lake Catemaco, and all of the thousands upon thousands of their fry, and their frys' fry, etc-etc-etc, not a single marbled fish has surfaced in a tank in North America. Seems a bit odd, don't you think?

If you want to believe otherwise that's fine by me. I'm not the only person that has questioned the purity of this variant over the years. I could very well be wrong, who knows …….

 

[RD.]

BTW - if you are interested in seeing some of the Lake Catemaco fens, there were several threads posted here over the years. Most of those fish originated from Don Conkel. Just use the search feature under the CA section here.

And they are a cool looking fish, I'm not trying to pick on your new fish.

 

[RD.]

Here's an earlier thread that I remembered, at least some of the pics are still showing.

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/paratheraps-fenestratus-lago-catemaco.400569/

 

[newworld]

Because Conkel always sells pure fish hahaha that was too easy...as for Asian imports particularly vieja I won’t even consider it considering what they could be..

 

[Ogertron3000]

Often, yes, at least when it comes to cichlids. There is only a bazillion hybrid strains currently in the market. Piebald, OB, albino, different geographical variants sliced & diced along the way, you name it. This has been taking place for decades, and many of these hybrid strains have originated in Asia, including many of the CA cichlid crosses, specifically from Thailand, where they use these fish in their flowerhorn breeding programs. Fish such as the red spot hartwegi aka Pranburi red spot vieja. So not a huge leap to suspect "marbled" cichlids from Thailand, as possibly not being pure. I have seen a sheet ton of hybrid cichlids come out of Asia over the years.



I just explained how difficult it is to import fish into AU, not just wild fish, but any fish. The chances of those fish being F1, or anything remotely close to that, is almost zero. Hence them originally being sold as simply an aquarium strain. If a vendor in AU can call something F1, or anywhere close to that, they would have. You can suspect what you want, but that doesn't prove anything.

I have nothing to prove or disprove here, I was simply commenting on your earlier post, where you stated these fish are a naturally occurring morph. To that I simply said that I am not convinced. Over the years I have seen no real proof to support marbled fenestratus as being pure, especially those coming from Thailand.

There have been lots of fenestratus collected from Lake Catemaco, going back many years, and that strain does not look anything like the marbled version. That, and out of all of those fish that do have provenance back to the Lake Catemaco, and all of the thousands upon thousands of their fry, and their frys' fry, etc-etc-etc, not a single marbled fish has surfaced in a tank in North America. Seems a bit odd, don't you think?

If you want to believe otherwise that's fine by me. I'm not the only person that has questioned the purity of this variant over the years. I could very well be wrong, who knows …….

When F1 or wild caught fish do pop up here in oz they are generally used for breeding and selling the offspring at a very high price. One LFS has wild caught blue acara, they look amazing and aren't for sale, he will sell the babies if he can get them to breed. Another store has supposed F1 rio nanay angel juveniles, the parents are on display and I've never seen any angel like them before, would love to set up my new tank with them but wouldn't be able to swing the cost past my wife unfortunately. Apistos are another fish where you see Offspring of F1 strains for sale a lot. As @RD said, if they are F1 they generally let you know and you pay for it but it is possible I guess.i think this strain may be like the electric blue acara where no one really knows how or why it originated, eg. Hybrid or line bred or combo of the 2. Either way as I said its a cool fish and if the owner is happy and isn't planning a high profit breeding scene it shouldn't be such an issue if the OP is happy.

 

[BlackNitti]

Marbled Fenestratus originated in Australia I cant post the link being I'm new but all the OG ones look like yours posted. I have quite a few I Imported mine from Thailand. I suspect a few of mine could be hybrids due to the red in some. I understand they try to bring in "new blood" that way because it's so few pure marble lines in Australia.