Question for all you Armatus keepers.

[Push]

Yeah.I have seen plenty of videos of fish from Japan that were fed goldfish and my guess is that the goldfish must be better kept than feeders here are.They are probably fed well and kept in good water....That was quite a sight to see so many nice sized armatus and I bet that gar probably cost more than my car.



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My point is what would be the difference between someone QTing their own goldfish feeders and using only healthy disease free feeders? You still run the possible gambit of fatty liver disease, and the problems with thiaminase, however it seems that the issue may be far more overblown here in the western world than it really is. I really don't know as I have steered away from using goldies in the past because it's pretty well spread that it isn't worth the risk but seeing things like this and seeing very stunning fish who have had pretty much a steady diet of goldfish or rosies from the get go makes me question if maybe we are going about things the wrong way feeding prepared foods.

I guess that's getting a little off topic however as we can't really come to a clear reason why so many have issues retaining larger specimens while others have great success.

 

[DB junkie]

My understanding water is softer over yonder........

ATF seem to do much better for us, and they come from harder water then the South American Payara.

They also feed live. Many of the 18"+ Armatus specimens over here are on a live diet. I broke mine from live sooner then most, and mine dropped first. I have stupid hard water here too though.... 8.6+ from tap.

There's something to cramming preds too, but I think this just mimics juvie shoals in the wild. Eventually they grow into the natural solitary preds they become in the wild. I had a night and day difference in luck putting a shoal of Dorado in a 40 breeder as opposed to 125-300 gallons. 40 they were fine. 300 they tried to control territory.

I bet you have a much higher success rate moving a monster wolf over an Armatus. Simple youtube video searches show that wolves are beyond tough. Fisherman strip off all the scales moving those monsters and it doesn't phase them. Track the Aimara owners and mortality rate is nothing compared to Armatus. That being said, moving a 30"er would be a task no doubt, but experiencing Aimara growth rate, I can tell you, you'll have a lot of time to figure it out...... Growth rate is less then half that of Armatus.

 

[Push]

My understanding water is softer over yonder........

ATF seem to do much better for us, and they come from harder water then the South American Payara.

They also feed live. Many of the 18"+ Armatus specimens over here are on a live diet. I broke mine from live sooner then most, and mine dropped first. I have stupid hard water here too though.... 8.6+ from tap.

There's something to cramming preds too, but I think this just mimics juvie shoals in the wild. Eventually they grow into the natural solitary preds they become in the wild. I had a night and day difference in luck putting a shoal of Dorado in a 40 breeder as opposed to 125-300 gallons. 40 they were fine. 300 they tried to control territory.

I bet you have a much higher success rate moving a monster wolf over an Armatus. Simple youtube video searches show that wolves are beyond tough. Fisherman strip off all the scales moving those monsters and it doesn't phase them. Track the Aimara owners and mortality rate is nothing compared to Armatus. That being said, moving a 30"er would be a task no doubt, but experiencing Aimara growth rate, I can tell you, you'll have a lot of time to figure it out...... Growth rate is less then half that of Armatus.

Oh believe me, concerning the wolf hurting that giant armored bastard would be the least of my concern. I was saying how does one go about moving one without losing digits. I've seen the videos of them attacking the glass, algae scrapers, nets, vacuums and all that jazz. I just don't see how one would go about moving a 30+ inch specimen without getting seriously injured.

DB have you ever thought about using a RO system? My tap PH has always read 6.5-7.0. So i'm not sure how well that would be for Payara but it seems to be adequate from the care guide.

Also another question about the Aimara, what would be the likely growth rate on average?

 

[DB junkie]

RO.... There's a 150 GPD system here. My problem is my fish "problem" is confined to the basement. I litterally have tanks stacked on top of tanks. The problem lies in the room needed to mix RO and tap before a WC. Big system gets 150-200 gallons a day via drip. IF I mix I have to devote space to rubbermaid tubs just to mix water. IF the rays are breeding in my liquid rock tap water then it shouldn't really be that big of an issue, but who knows maybe it is. I do know that I have had NO troubles whatsoever with any other South American fish. Have had a lot of SA Characins and never really had problems with anything but Armatus and Scombs. Ironically before I found MFK I had kept my longest living Scomb in brackish water. Until the FW Morays got it.

Growth rate on my Aimara (Amapa variant) has been less then 1/2"/month. Think I've had it a year and a half now and it's probobly up to 13" from the 6" I bought it at.

Aimara are just good dogs. They don't relentlessly attack, pester, or bother tankmates. They destroy outside things that come into thier home. Anything that isn't natural to the aquarium they are used to living in is a threat. Algae scrapers, siphons, nets, magfloats, they do hate all these things, but just like a good dog it only attacks when threatened.

As far as moving them I'd guess the same way you'd move any giant monster - probably tranq it, like they did the giant Arapima that the guy out in Cali had. It would be interesting to say the least but I bet a die hard MFKer does a better job then half those videos you see. I bet we treat our prized pet a lot different then they do a job.

 

[Push]

Big thanks for all the help DB. I think I'll definitely consider the Aimara when it comes to set everything up in the new tank. I think we are going to go about swapping everything this weekend and then I'm going to go ahead and cycle everything and once that is all said and done I'll be looking for some inhabitants. I've basically narrowed it to the 1 Armatus, 5-7 Tats. or the 1 Aimara.

If I do go with the Aimara, I know it's going to be quite the wallet shock for the initial purchase considering the most I've ever spent on a fish at any one time was for a Jardini Arowana for 150, so paying 700 to a 1000 for a fish is definitely going to hurt. I'm still apprehensive though about the Arm or the Aimara because of both their sizes, a little less so about the Armatus even though it's a flighty fish I've yet to hear of a payara no matter what the species making it to full wild size in home aquaria. But I am seeing Aimaras and other wolves that seem to not be stopped at all from reaching 35+ inches in the home aquarium.

I'd still love to hear more from you guys that have first hand experiences with these fish. Especially from some of you that have had the Tats before because I haven't heard much about them other than they are generally hardier than scombs but seem to have the same random deaths from time to time that the Armatus get. I have heard differences between the redtail variant being a bit more skittish than the yellow tail tats, but I'm not sure how much I should buy into that.

Again, thanks for the help guys and if you have some more feedback to share or concerns about the footprint of the tank that I'm moving to (72x36) from the one that I currently have (96x30) then I would love to hear that as well but it will need to be soon as the tanks may be swapped soon.

 

[DB junkie]

Aimara aren't cheap, no way around that...... There ARE other wolves out there that are supposed to be active. Lacardae and gold wolves come to mind. The Lacs get big, golds stay small and shoal apparently..... The little high fins some say are pretty active. I wouldn't hesitate to mix any of them minus Aimara with Tats.

Personally, I think you can't go wrong with the Tats, and then add other Characins with them. Odoe are very cool underated Characins. Mix well with anything. I really dig these guys. Cynopotumus species are really neat Characins that stay managable, another good mix, but very hard to come by..... I had a pair and can't believe I was stupid enough to sell them. Brycon mix well (The melenopterus sp). Really you can't go wrong with a mixed Characin tank. Could even add ATF.That gets my vote. IF I could only have a single tank in my house, it would no doubt be a mixed characin tank consisting of managable max size mixed Characins.

IF going this route, and don't ever plan on rays, you might be better off keeping the 8' tank. None of the above should really get big enough to benefit from the wider tank.

 

[Push]

Actually I was very interested in the Odoes because it is very reminiscent of my old Chain Pickerel except from what I see they stay smaller and are more active. I've also thought about the ATFs as well but I will be honest in that I know not much about them. Only that I am not in any way interested in goliaths. To be honest I'm more interested in Vittatus as I much prefer their dark prominent banding and their deep reds and yellows that you often see on them. Again though I have no idea how large the VATFs get so I'm kinda clueless there. Would a group of Tats be ok with something like a Endli polypterus, an Odoe, a Florida Gar, and possibly a VATF?

ETA: Doing a little research it seems that a VATF may be a bad combo with the tats because of it's aggressiveness towards other silver fish, and the issue of it's size again comes up so I'm not sure if it's still a viable option for whatever I end up with.

 

[DB junkie]

I've kept Tats with all the above except I had an Ornate instead of Endli. In my experience they definetly do better in groups as the competition to feed drives them all to eat better, and they are much less timid in numbers and also seem to patrol the tank more......

I've actually used Odoe as "teacher" fish to get payara off live. There's many horror stories floating around of them being psycho but I've never experienced this, BUT I've always kept in groups of 4 or more. I have a group of 9 currently and have never even seen any chases or nipped fins. Walk up to the tank to feed and they move as a group to the other side of the tank. Mainly top water preds. Mine are almost always in the upper part of the water column, but then again I have rays too, so I guess it could be because of them, but I think even the last group in a ray free growout hardly ever hung out down low. Very acurate sniper style fish. Mine just take turns sprinting half way across the tank to snag falling shrimp pieces. Probably the easiest characins to break onto dead food.

I'm 100% with you on VATF over GATF. I'd guess 2' maybe 30" on max size, and much more likely to be kept in a group..... Vatf seem to me to be the Tats of the ATF world. I know when I have the room to grow a group out and they are offered at VATF prices rather then the BS GATF prices I'll be pulling the trigger on a group. That 600 gallon plywood tank that the user Tigerfangs had changed my life lol. Truley amazin tank that was. Wish I would have spent years and thousands of dollars trying to raise those instead of Payara........

On a side note have you ever seen Vampire sheath catfish??? Can't tell you much about them, not sure anyone here on MFK has even had one but what a crazy looking creature. Have only seen them offered a few times but were no more loot then a ATF.

I'd hate to see what kind of fish I'd have if rays didn't take over all my tanks..... lol

 

[amazontank]

DB you are on the money on every post much respect for you i learned a lot from you! Push that wider tank with the sump is the way to go man more width a must have and cleaner water a must have!
IMO Armatus are wild fish man lightning fast predators and sooner or later in my experience for not a decent reason at all they smash themselves against the tank, get spooked, like DB mentioned (right on the money) anything will set them off, even a dumb catfish can scare them and they kill themselves. I think if you can get a good deal go for one and enjoy every day you have it. Also most tanks we see i was thinking with big armatus and schools of them probably are not permanent set ups.

 

[Push]

I've kept Tats with all the above except I had an Ornate instead of Endli. In my experience they definetly do better in groups as the competition to feed drives them all to eat better, and they are much less timid in numbers and also seem to patrol the tank more......

I've actually used Odoe as "teacher" fish to get payara off live. There's many horror stories floating around of them being psycho but I've never experienced this, BUT I've always kept in groups of 4 or more. I have a group of 9 currently and have never even seen any chases or nipped fins. Walk up to the tank to feed and they move as a group to the other side of the tank. Mainly top water preds. Mine are almost always in the upper part of the water column, but then again I have rays too, so I guess it could be because of them, but I think even the last group in a ray free growout hardly ever hung out down low. Very acurate sniper style fish. Mine just take turns sprinting half way across the tank to snag falling shrimp pieces. Probably the easiest characins to break onto dead food.

I'm 100% with you on VATF over GATF. I'd guess 2' maybe 30" on max size, and much more likely to be kept in a group..... Vatf seem to me to be the Tats of the ATF world. I know when I have the room to grow a group out and they are offered at VATF prices rather then the BS GATF prices I'll be pulling the trigger on a group. That 600 gallon plywood tank that the user Tigerfangs had changed my life lol. Truley amazin tank that was. Wish I would have spent years and thousands of dollars trying to raise those instead of Payara........

On a side note have you ever seen Vampire sheath catfish??? Can't tell you much about them, not sure anyone here on MFK has even had one but what a crazy looking creature. Have only seen them offered a few times but were no more loot then a ATF.

I'd hate to see what kind of fish I'd have if rays didn't take over all my tanks..... lol

DB were you referring to belodontichthys truncatus when you were talking about a vampire sheath catfish? I had one some years back that I got randomly at a LFS that is now closed down. I had it until it was about 14 inches but it ended up succumbing to a bad case of fungal disease and ick. It was a pretty cool fish and had some really wicked teeth. I've never seen another one for sale since that store went out of business.

Fortunately I've never really cared for rays, they just never really appealed to me. I have to say though when I lost my Esox a ton of ideas popped in my head, Get a nice single jardini with a somewhat planted tank and a nice centerpiece with a bunch of small schooling fish (small neon or cardinal tetras), A nice big Armatus, A shoal of Tats, Getting a nice couple of Pbass, or continuing down the Native route again with a few smallmouth bass, some blue gill and other mixed sunfish, and a couple of bullhead cats. Now an Aimara is on the list of possibilities and I'm still teetering on trying a single big Armatus, or a nice shoal of tats with other mixed characins.