Ray Exercise!!!

[Gr8KarmaSF]

The ray has no idea what he is missing when there is no sand vs sand.

Make sense?

Even thou the ray might not be wishing or thinking for sand the fact that its going to be more active with it is enough for me to say its more beneficial. Desire vs Instinct the results of more activity are the same.

just my .02

 

[FireMedic]

So.....sand, no sand.....sand, no sand.
Well I had enough and performed a little experiment:
In my 350 gallon breeding stock tank I utilized ten pounds of Estes Pearl and Estes Black sand(s). I covered one-third 1/3, of the bottom of the tank with the sands. (it was easy b/c the tank has reinforcing ridges that divide the bottom up like a sliced pie)
I noted that after a week exposed to the choice of Sand-No sand, the rays would almost always be found resting in the sand.
No mind you this tank is 6ft across and they have plenty-o-room to meander and explore yet they would consitently be found resting in or on the sandy area dispite their size(s) and apparent crowding of each other just to be on the sand.
My wife and I even purposefully hand fed from the opposite side of the tank so the rays wouldn't associate the sand with food. They still preferred to return to the sand for downtime.

Just an observation, three weeks in the making.
Respectfully, FireMedic.

 

[JD7.62]

So.....sand, no sand.....sand, no sand.
Well I had enough and performed a little experiment:
In my 350 gallon breeding stock tank I utilized ten pounds of Estes Pearl and Estes Black sand(s). I covered one-third 1/3, of the bottom of the tank with the sands. (it was easy b/c the tank has reinforcing ridges that divide the bottom up like a sliced pie)
I noted that after a week exposed to the choice of Sand-No sand, the rays would almost always be found resting in the sand.
No mind you this tank is 6ft across and they have plenty-o-room to meander and explore yet they would consitently be found resting in or on the sandy area dispite their size(s) and apparent crowding of each other just to be on the sand.
My wife and I even purposefully hand fed from the opposite side of the tank so the rays wouldn't associate the sand with food. They still preferred to return to the sand for downtime.

Just an observation, three weeks in the making.
Respectfully, FireMedic.

Now that is an experiment that I think has some value to it!

I agree that given a choice between the too they will choose sand, and its obvious by your experiment. However, I still believe that the sand is nothing more then a trigger fand with out that trigger the ray is completly oblivious to the fact he is not on it.

As far as activity is concerned, my rare on bare-bottom was very active, he just didnt blow through the sand.

 

[T1KARMANN]

I have to disagree and here is why;

Rays are not cognitive beings. They rely on instincts. For example, when my ray was on bare bottom he would still flap his disk as if to bury him self and continue to lay motionless. There was no sand there. He did not know that there was no sand there and that he, in fact was not hidden. What it was, was what ever startled him triggered an instinctual (did I just make up a word?) reaction to bury himself.

Likewise, when on sand, the sand triggers an instinct in the ray to "sift" for food. On bare-bottom that trigger is obviously not there so they do not do it. When I sold that particualr ray to Rallysman, who had sand, the ray immediately started sifting after spending nearly a year in my tank with out exhibiting such a behavior.

That is why I believe it does not matter if rays are kept on sand or not. The fish are not thinking "damn I wish I had some sand in here so I can sift endlessly all day for food even though Im never going to find any." Instead the sand TRIGGERS that response. The ray has no idea what he is missing when there is no sand vs sand.

Make sense?

im sorry but i have never read so much crap

this triggers that and that triggers this

if you put a bird in a cage it cant fly you let it out the cage it will fly as thats what it has evolved to do its normal for a bird to fly thats what they do

that same bird will still try to flap its wings to fly in a cage much like in the same way a ray is flapping it disk

a ray would cover its self with substrate in the wild to hide or when its resting

the reason your ray still flapped its disk then stayed still was not because it thought it was covered in sand it was because it was flapping its disk not getting covered with sand then think crap i have no were to hide if i stay still the pred may think im dead

rays are not like other fish they are like water dogs they even have pups im not getting into this deep debate AGAIN

i think its very cruel to keep rays on a bare bottom tank just like i feel its cruel to keep birds in cages

 

[T1KARMANN]

Makes me wonder, how much BB can fit on a grain of sand?

alot how do you think sand filters work

 

[FireMedic]

One other thing......the P. Motoro that I keep look exquisite in the sand that I provided them in my experiment.
Friends and family love the contrast the blue plastic provides as well as the complimentary blending the sand offers.
I really have no personel opinion on this matter.
Respectfully, FireMedic.

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

alot how do you think sand filters work

I want a number please!

Firemedic - you rock! thanks for sharing!!!

 

[JD7.62]

im sorry but i have never read so much crap

this triggers that and that triggers this

if you put a bird in a cage it cant fly you let it out the cage it will fly as thats what it has evolved to do its normal for a bird to fly thats what they do

that same bird will still try to flap its wings to fly in a cage much like in the same way a ray is flapping it disk

a ray would cover its self with substrate in the wild to hide or when its resting

the reason your ray still flapped its disk then stayed still was not because it thought it was covered in sand it was because it was flapping its disk not getting covered with sand then think crap i have no were to hide if i stay still the pred may think im dead
rays are not like other fish they are like water dogs they even have pups im not getting into this deep debate AGAIN

i think its very cruel to keep rays on a bare bottom tank just like i feel its cruel to keep birds in cages

You are an excellent ray keeper and I respect your knowledge however anyone with a fundemental understanding of biology will know that different stimuli will trigger different reactions. In fact, response to stimuli is one of the defining factors of life.


Rays have brains that are FAR more simpler then birds and Im sorry they do rely on instinct and instinct only. Even us humans rely on instinct like how our eyes instinctivly blink when we hear a loud sound. Unlike rays, we not only rely on insticts, we can also think for ourselves.

Sometimes people can get really attached to their animals and think they are smarter then they are. Sadly it just is not true.

If you believe what I have in bold is true, then you believe your rays have a higher thought process then Human toddlers. That just aint the case buddy.

 

[T1KARMANN]

you have answered your own ? hear

rays rely on instinct and that is to cover them self with substrate when scared and dig in it to look for food surely not to provide the substrate is cruel RIGHT

 

[JD7.62]

No, because the sand TRIGGERS them to blow for food and NOT to bury in it for cover. Something that startles them TRIGGERS the "bury in sand" response.

You see, the fact that they do the "bury in sand" response on bare bottom and NOT the blowing motion clearly shows that.

This is only my opinion of course and I would like some real biologists to chime in on this issue. I just made a call to a icthyologist friend of mine to see what has to say. Admittedly he has no experience with rays, just native fresh water fishes, but he still may be able to shed some light on just how smart fish can be.