Hey everyone.
I know that the general opinion on this subject is that all Potamotrygons are very sensitive to both ammonia and nitrite. But I think its time for me to bust this myth (and that of ammonia burns).
I have kept rays for almost 3 years now and started out with a pair of hystrix. I got a pair of motoros a year later. I didn’t know much about keeping these fish so it was all trial and error at that point in time (Couldn’t find much info, and the things I did find where written on German).
But, the first half year everything went well, and my hystrix pair grew and ate like pigs. But then things started to get out of control. My pumps couldn’t keep up with the ray’s bio waste. The ammonia and nitrite where at a steady 0.4 ppm (0,4 mg/l). It took a month before I gave up and bought a bigger filter. But the rays didn’t react to the bad water, not at all! They just behaved like normal. No stress, no ammonia burns, no nothing. Also, I didn’t know anything about the fact that rays should be sensitive Ammonia or nitrate, and I don’t think the hystrixs did either.
Well, I got the water under control again, and I didn’t really have any problems with the hystrixs again. But then I got my motoro pair. They got a rough start and turned the water real bad, real fast. I think I went up to around 0,6 ppm (0,6 mg/l). This was due to a bio filter that died on me. They lived in 0.6 ppm (0,6 mg/l) water for 3 days before I got a new filter from a lfs (with active biomass). This time they where swimming around a lot and up the glass. But I wasn’t sure if it was do to the water of the fact that they had just been shipped. Though stressed (and with 0,6 ppm nitrite and ammonia), they ate like normal.
Then half a year ago, I got another pair of rays. They were the common brown type from Columbia. This time things went wrong, AGAIN! I have always used rough filter mats in my bio filters. But some noob form another fish forum, told me to use bio balls in my canister filters. Bio balls are cheap, so I gave it a shot. But they didn’t do well, not at all! Their surface area is only half of that of most rough filter mats. So once again the ammonia and nitrite levels went crazy, peaking at 1,9 ppm (1,9 mg/l) and 1+ ppm nitrite. They stayed in water like this for 4 days (did everthing I could to lower the levels, but nothing worked + I didn’t feed them in this period)! This time both rays went crazy, breathing heavily and refusing to eat (no wonder though). But they both made it, and started feeding when the water got better.
But again, this didn’t prove anything.
So I had to make an experiment. And the result are in, please read on.
The experiment.
The experiment was done with my 35 cm leo male (yes I did use a 3000 dollars fish as ginnypig).
The tank was a standard Danish 145 gallon.
I started out by removing one of the bio filters and raising the ammonia and nitrite levels to a steady 0,4-0,6 ppm (0,4-0,6 mg/l). At this point nothing happened. It ate and behaved as normal, not showing any signs of stress. This level was kept for 2 weeks. Nothing changed. I then raised the level to 0,6-0.8 ppm. At this point the first signs of stress started to show, as it swam up the glass more often. But it still ate, and its behaviour was relatively normal. Now, ammonia is toxic to fish because it reduces their ability to absorb oxygen form the water. That’s also why most fish breath extremely fast when your water turns bad, as they fight to absorb oxygen. The ray did breathe a little faster, but not much. I kept things like this for 2 weeks.
I was now ready to take the last step and raise the levels to 0,9-1+ ppm (0,9-1+ mg/l).
This time I got a real reaction. It showed real signs of stress, swimming a lot, trying to find a way out of the tank. I refused to eat to. I kept the levels like this for only 2 hours. He just looked so stressed that I couldn’t bare to watch. So I lowered the levels to 0,8 ppm. And then I got a shock! He started eating again just as the levels passed 9 ppm!
At this point (yesterday) I was satisfied with my results, and ended the experiment.
I connected the 2end bio filters again and did 3 x 50 % water changes (also yesterday). And now everything is back to normal, and the water is perfect.
I think these results will chock many, and for good reason. Everyone on this forum has been talking about ammonia burns and rays dying at levels of only 0,05 pmm (ammonia). I think it was rudy that lost a lot of rays, and the 0,05 ppm ammonia got the blame. But these results just goes to show, that we shouldn’t blame the ammonia or nitrite, in cases like that.
I also think its safe to say that is time to lay this myth to rest, as most normal fish would have died early on in experiment. Also, the ammonia burn thing, it’s a myth too. Any fish doped into a tank with a concentration of ammonia strong enough to burn/dissolve flesh would be dead in mere seconds do to suffocation. Also, the rays eyes would be the first thing to go, not the flesh.
Ammonia strong enough to burn or dissolve flesh simply isn’t found in ANY fishtank. BUT, leos, hystrix and motoros are some real hardy rays, rectis, tigers and flowers could be more sensitive. Who knows?
Also, everyone is linking deathcurl to ammonia and nitrite, but I am not sure anymore. I can’t prove anything though (yet).
I will do an experiment with ammonia alone soon, just to see how much rays can tolerate (Don’t worry, I won’t kill it).
But I think that’s will all for now. I/we have busted two myths today. So I think it’s safe to say that my job is done for now.
P.s Im danish, so some of the spelling might be wrong.
I know that the general opinion on this subject is that all Potamotrygons are very sensitive to both ammonia and nitrite. But I think its time for me to bust this myth (and that of ammonia burns).
I have kept rays for almost 3 years now and started out with a pair of hystrix. I got a pair of motoros a year later. I didn’t know much about keeping these fish so it was all trial and error at that point in time (Couldn’t find much info, and the things I did find where written on German).
But, the first half year everything went well, and my hystrix pair grew and ate like pigs. But then things started to get out of control. My pumps couldn’t keep up with the ray’s bio waste. The ammonia and nitrite where at a steady 0.4 ppm (0,4 mg/l). It took a month before I gave up and bought a bigger filter. But the rays didn’t react to the bad water, not at all! They just behaved like normal. No stress, no ammonia burns, no nothing. Also, I didn’t know anything about the fact that rays should be sensitive Ammonia or nitrate, and I don’t think the hystrixs did either.
Well, I got the water under control again, and I didn’t really have any problems with the hystrixs again. But then I got my motoro pair. They got a rough start and turned the water real bad, real fast. I think I went up to around 0,6 ppm (0,6 mg/l). This was due to a bio filter that died on me. They lived in 0.6 ppm (0,6 mg/l) water for 3 days before I got a new filter from a lfs (with active biomass). This time they where swimming around a lot and up the glass. But I wasn’t sure if it was do to the water of the fact that they had just been shipped. Though stressed (and with 0,6 ppm nitrite and ammonia), they ate like normal.
Then half a year ago, I got another pair of rays. They were the common brown type from Columbia. This time things went wrong, AGAIN! I have always used rough filter mats in my bio filters. But some noob form another fish forum, told me to use bio balls in my canister filters. Bio balls are cheap, so I gave it a shot. But they didn’t do well, not at all! Their surface area is only half of that of most rough filter mats. So once again the ammonia and nitrite levels went crazy, peaking at 1,9 ppm (1,9 mg/l) and 1+ ppm nitrite. They stayed in water like this for 4 days (did everthing I could to lower the levels, but nothing worked + I didn’t feed them in this period)! This time both rays went crazy, breathing heavily and refusing to eat (no wonder though). But they both made it, and started feeding when the water got better.
But again, this didn’t prove anything.
So I had to make an experiment. And the result are in, please read on.
The experiment.
The experiment was done with my 35 cm leo male (yes I did use a 3000 dollars fish as ginnypig).
The tank was a standard Danish 145 gallon.
I started out by removing one of the bio filters and raising the ammonia and nitrite levels to a steady 0,4-0,6 ppm (0,4-0,6 mg/l). At this point nothing happened. It ate and behaved as normal, not showing any signs of stress. This level was kept for 2 weeks. Nothing changed. I then raised the level to 0,6-0.8 ppm. At this point the first signs of stress started to show, as it swam up the glass more often. But it still ate, and its behaviour was relatively normal. Now, ammonia is toxic to fish because it reduces their ability to absorb oxygen form the water. That’s also why most fish breath extremely fast when your water turns bad, as they fight to absorb oxygen. The ray did breathe a little faster, but not much. I kept things like this for 2 weeks.
I was now ready to take the last step and raise the levels to 0,9-1+ ppm (0,9-1+ mg/l).
This time I got a real reaction. It showed real signs of stress, swimming a lot, trying to find a way out of the tank. I refused to eat to. I kept the levels like this for only 2 hours. He just looked so stressed that I couldn’t bare to watch. So I lowered the levels to 0,8 ppm. And then I got a shock! He started eating again just as the levels passed 9 ppm!
At this point (yesterday) I was satisfied with my results, and ended the experiment.
I connected the 2end bio filters again and did 3 x 50 % water changes (also yesterday). And now everything is back to normal, and the water is perfect.
I think these results will chock many, and for good reason. Everyone on this forum has been talking about ammonia burns and rays dying at levels of only 0,05 pmm (ammonia). I think it was rudy that lost a lot of rays, and the 0,05 ppm ammonia got the blame. But these results just goes to show, that we shouldn’t blame the ammonia or nitrite, in cases like that.
I also think its safe to say that is time to lay this myth to rest, as most normal fish would have died early on in experiment. Also, the ammonia burn thing, it’s a myth too. Any fish doped into a tank with a concentration of ammonia strong enough to burn/dissolve flesh would be dead in mere seconds do to suffocation. Also, the rays eyes would be the first thing to go, not the flesh.
Ammonia strong enough to burn or dissolve flesh simply isn’t found in ANY fishtank. BUT, leos, hystrix and motoros are some real hardy rays, rectis, tigers and flowers could be more sensitive. Who knows?
Also, everyone is linking deathcurl to ammonia and nitrite, but I am not sure anymore. I can’t prove anything though (yet).
I will do an experiment with ammonia alone soon, just to see how much rays can tolerate (Don’t worry, I won’t kill it).
But I think that’s will all for now. I/we have busted two myths today. So I think it’s safe to say that my job is done for now.
P.s Im danish, so some of the spelling might be wrong.
