Rays, resistance to ammonia and nitrite (Busted!!) A must reader!

[andersp90]

At the lfs I used to work at, someone brought in about 1000 1-1 1/2 inch flowerhorn fry, and we had no choice but to put them in a 40 breeder. Over the course of the next few days, the bio-filter was overloaded (obviously), and the ammonia levels in the tank rose to a deadly 8.0 ppm. Obviously, had we dropped these fish into that water from being in good, freshwater, they would have all died. However, because this change occurred over 3-4 days, they were able to tolerate it, and none died. I assume the way you performed your experiment was through allowing it to rise over the course of a few days. In that case, almost any fish can live through that for at least a brief period of time, provided the transition time is long enough. it gives them time to produce more slime, and increase their metabolism for higher respiration rate.
Also, I'm not really seeing how you could calculate your pH when you don't have a base starting point and don't know the exact composition of the water aside from NH3 and N02 content. Actually, I would say it's definitely impossible, partially because I know that a ray would be dead at an already stressful pH of 8.5, at which ammonia poisoning would probably occur around .17 ppm, like stated above. As useful as this experiment may be to you, I can assure you that the stress will shorten your rays' lifespans, and I doubt you want to get less out of your "$3000 leo" than what you possibly could. If these rays were kept at a low enough pH (in theory), you wouldn't even need a bio-filter, as all NH3 would automatically be converted into NH4+, which is near harmless(less harmful than nitrate, I believe), due to the the high H3O+ content of the water.


Note: If the strongest acids you have seen thus far are HCL and H2SO4, you have a lot to look forward to in college chem lab!

I don’t see a problem in making the math, just because there are other substances in the water than just ammonia. Just as long as they are not alkaline. But I will raise the levels again to 0,4-0,6 ppm , 0,6-0,8 ppm and 0,9 – 1+ ppm and look at the pH. Then do the math. Then we will see.

Also, the levels where raised to replicate ammonia/nitrite spikes. That was the whole point of this experiment. What would you expect me to do? Buy some ammonia and pore it in to see what would happen? That wouldn’t happen in any real life would it? So I don’t see your point? I have shown that the hardy rays can tolerate ammonia and nitrite for long periods. Again, that was the point.

Also, the strongest acid is H2SO4. So again, i dont see your point.

 

[fishoverlivingspace]

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I don’t see a problem in making the math, just because there are other substances in the water than just ammonia. Just as long as they are not alkaline. But I will raise the levels again to 0,4-0,6 ppm , 0,6-0,8 ppm and 0,9 – 1+ ppm and look at the pH. Then do the math. Then we will see.

Also, the levels where raised to replicate ammonia/nitrite spikes. That was the whole point of this experiment. What would you expect me to do? Buy some ammonia and pore it in to see what would happen? That wouldn’t happen in any real life would it? So I don’t see your point? I have shown that the hardy rays can tolerate ammonia and nitrite for long periods (Muth busted). Again, that was the point.

Also, the strongest acid is H2OSO4. So again, i dont see your point.

-The problem in making the math is that I guarantee you there were other alkaline(and organic, pH affecting) substances in the water.

-If one were to lose his bio-filtration entirely, a "spike" would occur much more rapidly than over the course of a few days, and would almost certainly kill the rays

-By pka and rate of dissociation(and how quickly it can eat flesh haha), HI is a far stronger acid than H2SO4. Also, HBr is tied with H2SO4 in strength, and HSbF6 is the strongest of them all.

 

[tank125]

I don’t see a problem in making the math, just because there are other substances in the water than just ammonia. Just as long as they are not alkaline. But I will raise the levels again to 0,4-0,6 ppm , 0,6-0,8 ppm and 0,9 – 1+ ppm and look at the pH. Then do the math. Then we will see.

Also, the levels where raised to replicate ammonia/nitrite spikes. That was the whole point of this experiment. What would you expect me to do? Buy some ammonia and pore it in to see what would happen? That wouldn’t happen in any real life would it? So I don’t see your point? I have shown that the hardy rays can tolerate ammonia and nitrite for long periods (Myth busted). Again, that was the point.

Also, the strongest acid is H2SO4. So again, i dont see your point.

The point you are missing is that you have not proven anything except for something that is already common knowledge. The only reason it did not stress your rays is because your pH was low. The 8.5 calculation is wrong if you are trying to say that that is what the pH was at in the tank during the "experiment." Your rays would be dead if they were in a pH of 8.5 with ammonia at that high of a concentration.

What Miles meant by "drip acclimation" is when one opens the shipping bag and slowly adds tank water to the bag to acclimate the ray to the tank water. Commonly so slowly that it is done by dripping water into the shipping bag with the ray with a small siphon hose.

In conclusion, we all agree that a ray, or any fish for that matter, can tolerate ammonia, but it is directly related to the pH of the water in question.

 

[andersp90]

The point you are missing is that you have not proven anything except for something that is already common knowledge. The only reason it did not stress your rays is because your pH was low. The 8.5 calculation is wrong if you are trying to say that that is what the pH was at in the tank during the "experiment." Your rays would be dead if they were in a pH of 8.5 with ammonia at that high of a concentration.

Yes I know my calculations are dead wrong, whats why I am going to ask my teacher about it. I simply can’t make the pKs work. I haven’t worked with pH in a year or so. I will do the experiment real fast this time and measure the pH and then due the math (correctly this time) and see how it turns out.

What Miles meant by "drip acclimation" is when one opens the shipping bag and slowly adds tank water to the bag to acclimate the ray to the tank water. Commonly so slowly that it is done by dripping water into the shipping bag with the ray with a small siphon hose.

He he I have kept fish for 10 years, so I know what drip acclimation is. I was asking how it could burn the ray. I still don’t see how that is possible.

-The problem in making the math is that I guarantee you there were other alkaline(and organic, pH affecting) substances in the water.

I know, but I will still give it a shot. Would be so cool if it worked.

If one were to lose his bio-filtration entirely, a "spike" would occur much more rapidly than over the course of a few days, and would almost certainly kill the rays.

I was only running a small am-top 400 l/h. So the filtration was at a minimum. It just kept the levels stable. My point didn’t go to show that rays can survive rays without any filtration for days. They indeed die without bio filtration. Just like most other fish would.

-By pka and rate of dissociation(and how quickly it can eat flesh haha), HI is a far stronger acid than H2SO4. Also, HBr is tied with H2SO4 in strength, and HSbF6 is the strongest of them all.

I just remember something about HSbF6 as having a low pka for some strange reason. But I am just to tired now. And yes, you are cirtenly right, HSbF6 is the stronget acid around. My bad.

 

[fishoverlivingspace]

I just remember something about HSbF6 as having a low pka for some strange reason. But I just to tired now. And yes, you are cirtenly right, HSbF6 is the stronget acid around. My bad.

HSbF6 is the strongest acid because it has such a low pka (<-12). The lower the pka, the stronger the acid

 

[andersp90]

HSbF6 is the strongest acid because it has such a low pka (<-12). The lower the pka, the stronger the acid

I just look it up, and your right again! XD I bow to you my master..

 

[hollywood69]

you already stated it about leos and motoros, but as for retics, I could tell when it was time for a water change!! I always had excellant filtration, but my nitrates would increase, that alone changed their behavior. Then I would do a water change, I averaged 1 wc a month.

Ok, i just read about the ph stuff. From my experience this is also true!!

When I bought my retics 7 years ago, all the retics were in 30 gal tanks, like 20 of them, with bloodworms floating around!! The filter at the store was a basic hang on the back filtration. The store owner said that the ph is the most important number, the ph was around 6.5 I think. I also had my ph 6.5 - 7.0. What's funny is when I bough my retics they were $20 a pop, I bought 2 at the time. In another tank there were leos and henleiis for $300!!!!!!!!!! I could have easily afforded those but I was/am a cheap bastard!! Dumbas!!

 

[turkeyboy85]

well... how could u know brazil was gonna close thier border and make the prices skyrocket

 

[dave843]

Ammonia toxicity in rays has alot to do with when they are shipped. The respire in the bag, increasing cO2, thus lowering the pH. They then produce ammonia through osmosis, which is acid, thus lowering the pH. You open the bag and drip acclimate to a higher pH (as many uninformed importers do) and it creates the 'ammonia burn' that is so often mentioned..

He he I have kept fish for 10 years, so I know what drip acclimation is. I was asking how it could burn the ray. I still don’t see how that is possible.

Hopefully Miles will come along and give a better explanation, but I think it goes something like this:

You have rays in a fairly small shipping bag. The water has ammonia in it (from the rays). Because of the ammonia, the PH of the water is fairly low. But since ammonia is less toxic at low PH levels, it's not really a big deal.

Then trying to acclimate the rays, you slowly add water that is a higher PH. This slowly raises the PH of the water (closer to the water in your tank). While that would be great for dealing with PH, the problem is that raising the PH makes the ammonia more toxic. And since you raised the PH without removing the ammonia, the rays get ammonia burn.

 

[Miles]

The 'ammonia burn' is a hobbyist term for ammonia damage.. it often causes reddening of the gills and/or underside of the disc.. Poor shipping often causes hyperplasia and the rays die weeks after export..

At higher levels (>0.1 mg/liter NH3) even relatively short exposures can lead to skin, eye, and gills damage. Slightly elevated ammonia levels falling within the acceptable range may adversely impact aquatic life. Fish may experience a reduction in hatching success; reduction in growth rate and morphological development; and injury to gill tissue (i.e., hyperplasia), liver, and kidneys. Hyperplasia-the gill filaments are swollen and clumped together, reducing the fish's ability to 'breath'.

Elevated levels can also lead to ammonia poisoning by suppressing normal ammonia excrement from the gills. If fish are unable to excrete this metabolic waste product there is a rise in blood-ammonia levels resulting in damage to internal organs. The fish response to toxic levels would be lethargy, loss of appetite, laying on the pond bottom with clamped fins, or gasping at the water surface if the gills have been affected. Because this response is similar to the response to poor water quality, parasite infestations and other diseases.

http://www.water-research.net/Watershed/ammonia.htm