Reptiles banned

[krzr3000]

Also politics dont give a dam on what we think. And zoos and aquariums, dont make me start on them. In a ideal world , we private keeprs and puplic aquariums and zoos could have a beautifull relation ship, exchanjing info , tips and even animals. But insted they say that we are responsable for the declining of wild pops,that we make ilegal trading (in ther small mind private captive breding is "ilegal trading"), that the animals we keep are not suitable for private ownerchip,etc, when they make way bigger mistakes. Also they tend to be really arrogant

Well...the general public is responsible for the decline of native populations. Not necessarily us here, but consumers who release are at fault.
Also, i'm sure they get people wanting them to take in their big iguanas, monitors, and fish enough to make them pretty peeved.

 

[Kioka]

Money-tailed Skinks are still mostly wild-caught, but no one go out of their way to actually get them. Most of the Monkey-tailed Skinks are a result of deforestation. If one fall out of the tree, great! Extra cash. Even then, Australian reptiles are still a victim of hybridization. It is assumed that EVERY animal of the Antaresia complex are hybrids due to poor understanding of taxonomy, and that we only got their forms back through back-breeding; however it is still not the same as the real thing, eh?

Same with Tiliqua, now it is assumed there is no such thing as a pure Australian skink except for the Egernia complex, except for the T. rogusa in overseas captivity (outside of Australia). The same thing can be said about the Morelia complex as well with the back-breeding tale thrown in.

The Pituophis example is one that with a ruined gene pool that cannot be recovered, even by responsible breeders. The P. ruthveni is not the only Pituophis member in captivity that is permanently ruined by hybridization.

 

[davo]

Live somewhere cold... they won't survive when they are loose, and they will only be able to ban the dangerous species if it comes too it. Too many people will make a fuss otherwise.

 

[coura]

Money-tailed Skinks are still mostly wild-caught, but no one go out of their way to actually get them. Most of the Monkey-tailed Skinks are a result of deforestation. If one fall out of the tree, great! Extra cash. Even then, Australian reptiles are still a victim of hybridization. It is assumed that EVERY animal of the Antaresia complex are hybrids due to poor understanding of taxonomy, and that we only got their forms back through back-breeding; however it is still not the same as the real thing, eh?

Same with Tiliqua, now it is assumed there is no such thing as a pure Australian skink except for the Egernia complex, except for the T. rogusa in overseas captivity (outside of Australia). The same thing can be said about the Morelia complex as well with the back-breeding tale thrown in.

The Pituophis example is one that with a ruined gene pool that cannot be recovered, even by responsible breeders. The P. ruthveni is not the only Pituophis member in captivity that is permanently ruined by hybridization.

Well at least teoricly monkey tail skinks could no longer be imported as wild cauts, and that´s the reason they are being captive bred in gradualy greater numbers. And yes they are mainly wild caut stock , but that´s because they are long lived animals and very slow breeders , so even with aour greater understending of their husbandry,even at full speed , the increasing of captive breds numbers are still very slow.Has for hibidization, well, it still falls in the category of work made for uresponseble hobbists as a serious treat to the genetic deversity of captive populations. But let´s see the brigth side. If captive bred animals are avaiable, even if they are not 100% similar to their wild conterparts, they can be used to sustain aour hobby,and at the same time to educate the people around them. If a person has or had a pet iguana , it is much more likely to become worried about the treats that iguanas face in the wild ,than a persom that hasnt. Also remenbar that nature is not so purist as we normaly think. In species diverse in terms of subspecies ,king snakes for example ,intergrates apear all time. In fact this level of cross breding is important in the evolution of wild pops because it brings fresh genes. One of the best exemples I can think of it´s the Galapagos tortoises . Resent genetic work has showed that a small level of cross breding between subspecies and populations has happened many times in the past. And what about Cuora trifasciata. Now this is really wierd. First there are some diferent forms of this boxie and they are no longer considered to belong to the same species. One of those forms has been recently discovered as bieng an ancestral hibrid between Cuora pani and Cuora galbinifrons. So hibridization is a natural thing. Im I pro hibrids? No,absolutley not,but now that they are here let´s learn to live with them and enjoy them ,and use them to learn from past mistakes, so that they dont happen again.All thouse snakes and lizards you mencionet make great pets even if they are not 100% pure. Also if for a catastrofic event, the pure wild populations are destroed,the captive pops will still be there,conserving some of the genes of ther´s ancestors. That if you ask me is much better than losing all. Has for Australian species I was really refering to all herp species present in the hobby that have aussi forms:skinks,monitors,pythons,geckos,agamids,sideneckturtles,etc. with this species there has been in fact some level crossbreding and even inbreding, but some stocks are really well preserved and managed. That´s why here in Europe we have stud books

 

[Kioka]

What you means wild-caught can be no longer be exported? They are from the Solomon Islands, which have little or no respect for CITES laws, like many third world countries. I STILL see them on the import list. That aside...

Hybridization will always occur as long there's money in it or people are too lazy to look for compatible breeding stocks; even Europeans are guilty of this. As long those two exists, the hobby can never be considered as "conservation."

Beside, what the whole point of conserving them if there is no habitat to reintroduce them back into? THAT SHOULD be the primarily cause of conservation is preserving their habitat. Here's an ironic twist, by DEMANDING wild-caught animals, we are actually PRESERVING their habitat especially since in other countries, people will do anything to preserve their environment if there is money in it. If a hundred have to die in transaction, just so a few thousand more can continue to exist in the wild and reproduce, so be it.

 

[Danyal]

you guys know you can't spell worth a damn right? any way i agree w/ kioka, we need to work with the sources to sponsor responsible, sustainable wild capture. a lot like what is being done with reefs and the marine hobby.

 

[coura]

What you means wild-caught can be no longer be exported? They are from the Solomon Islands, which have little or no respect for CITES laws, like many third world countries. I STILL see them on the import list. That aside...

Hybridization will always occur as long there's money in it or people are too lazy to look for compatible breeding stocks; even Europeans are guilty of this. As long those two exists, the hobby can never be considered as "conservation."

Beside, what the whole point of conserving them if there is no habitat to reintroduce them back into? THAT SHOULD be the primarily cause of conservation is preserving their habitat. Here's an ironic twist, by DEMANDING wild-caught animals, we are actually PRESERVING their habitat especially since in other countries, people will do anything to preserve their environment if there is money in it. If a hundred have to die in transaction, just so a few thousand more can continue to exist in the wild and reproduce, so be it.

Well I said "teoricly" this species is no longer allowed to be exported as wild cauts to europe and North America.Are you chore that those imports dont come from some captive breeding farm in the animal´s natural range? Has for conservation or not here´s an example that is on my head. The chinese crocodile lizard Shinisaurus crocodilurus. This species is only known in a few provinces of south China and is really on the verge of extincion in the wild. Like many species the capture for the hobby has, along several other threats contributed for the reducion in numbers. But now that same capture may just be the salvation of this species. Thanks to several North american and Europeian breeders this species has now increased in numbers and now has a much more secure future. Since this species is monofiletic there is not the problem of hibridization. Several zoos are working whit this species but all of the original broodstock came from private hands. At least at the moment there has not been reintroductions in the wild, but that doesant meen it will not happen in the future. Kioka if this isnt conserving I dont know what it is All this is also happening whit many species of endangered Asian turtle species.Zoos are also helping of corse,but where will they be whitaut aour experience in breeding and caring for reptiles ? Untill very recently most zoos only paid atention to large animals. The broodstock of many reptile species present in zoos came from private hands.
Also I just remenbered, some Australian reptile stocks have not been altered by hibridization. this is the case whit of the Australian geckos present in the hobby: Oedura,Nephrurus,etc.
As for we Europ foolks being too responsable, for the hibrids problem, also true but at least we where not the ones that first created those "Super mega hipomelanistic salmon tiger tyrusine positive granite unbeliveblistic tangerine" Boas It´s a brand new morph.I´ll get one just as soon I´m on my own

 

[Kioka]

The ONLY place they are from is the Solomon Islands. Permits are easy to get in the Solomons, so wild-caught Monkey-tailed Skinks are easier to come by than captive-bred ones. There is no reptile farm in the Solomons as far I know.

Anyway... I will quote this:

Beside, what the whole point of conserving them if there is no habitat to reintroduce them back into? THAT SHOULD be the primarily cause of conservation is preserving their habitat. Here's an ironic twist, by DEMANDING wild-caught animals, we are actually PRESERVING their habitat especially since in other countries, people will do anything to preserve their environment if there is money in it. If a hundred have to die in transaction, just so a few thousand more can continue to exist in the wild and reproduce, so be it.

So yes, even though we love to preach captive-breeding will reduce the stress on wild population; which is true. However think about the ALTERNATIVE. If there is no demand for wild-caught, then those habitats will be zoned for agriculture since the pet trade is no longer profitable. Just something to think about.

So which is the lesser of the two evils?

 

[coura]

The ONLY place they are from is the Solomon Islands. Permits are easy to get in the Solomons, so wild-caught Monkey-tailed Skinks are easier to come by than captive-bred ones. There is no reptile farm in the Solomons as far I know.

Anyway... I will quote this:

So yes, even though we love to preach captive-breeding will reduce the stress on wild population; which is true. However think about the ALTERNATIVE. If there is no demand for wild-caught, then those habitats will be zoned for agriculture since the pet trade is no longer profitable. Just something to think about.

So which is the lesser of the two evils?

A real dilema