Ron's Cichlid food?

[Trouser Cough]

From this paper;

"Fatty infiltration of the liver has also been designated "the most common metabolic disturbance and most frequent cause of death in aquarium fish"

"With prolonged feeding of a high-energy, lipid rich diet, degenerative changes of the liver and death can occur unless the diet is corrected."

A subjective term such as the word "prolonged" is a shameful reference within a research paper. You clearly are very familiar w/ pet nutritional standards and I hoping you may recall whether they ever defined that term within their documentation?

 

[RD.]

Reference

1. North American Journal of Aquaculture: Vol. 66, No. 4, pp. 285–292. An Evaluation of Two Commercially Prepared Feeds on Growth Performance and Liver Condition of Juvenile African Cichlids Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli

Juli-Anne B. Royes,Debra J. Murie,Ruth Francis-Floyd &Scott Terrell


Abstract

A 12-week feeding trial was conducted to evaluate growth performance and hepatocyte changes in juvenile African cichlids Pseudotropheus socolofi and Haplochromis ahli fed commercial diets commonly used on cichlid farms in south Florida. Fish were fed either a trout starter pellet diet (TP diet; 52% crude protein, 17% lipid) or a mixed flake feed diet (fish flake [FF] diet) (47% crude protein, 7% lipid). For both species, growth was significantly greater (P < 0.05) in fish fed the TP diet than in fish fed the FF diet, H. ahli administered the FF diet exhibiting the slowest growth. The hepatosomatic index was not significantly different among treatments (P > 0.1). Histological examination revealed severe vacuolation of hepatocytes in P. socolofi fed the TP diet and moderate vacuolation in H. ahli fed the TP diet. Moderate vacuolation of hepatocytes was observed in P. socolofi fed the FF diet, and only mild vacuolation was found in H. ahli fed the FF diet. The lipid-rich TP diet may be suitable for commercial production of juvenile African cichlids up to 12 weeks of age, but prolonged feeding may result in excess lipid deposition and necrosis of the liver. Feeds like the FF diet, which produced slower growth but lower lipid deposition in livers, may be more suitable as a maintenance diet for cichlids in the home aquarium.

 

[RD.]

And as far as the term prolonged being subjective, I agree, but in this case - was it? I don't think so.

The feed trial lasted 12 weeks, where very young juvenile fish were used as test subjects. Fish that would have far higher metabolic rates, where lipids would be used up far more rapidly, vs older more mature specimens. And the early signs of liver damage were already present in less than 90 days. Read the paper, view the slides of liver samples.

At the end of the day the point was that lipid (fat) levels should be considered just as much as protein levels, in a diet designed for fish.

 

[aussieman57]

And as far as the term prolonged being subjective, I agree, but in this case - was it? I don't think so.

The feed trial lasted 12 weeks, where very young juvenile fish were used as test subjects. Fish that would have far higher metabolic rates, where lipids would be used up far more rapidly, vs older more mature specimens. And the early signs of liver damage were already present in less than 90 days. Read the paper, view the slides of liver samples.

At the end of the day the point was that lipid (fat) levels should be considered just as much as protein levels, in a diet designed for fish.

A good analogy would be the guy that years ago did the McDonalds Challenge. He ate nothing but McD's food for I think 3 months. His liver functions were determined to be abnormal via blood testing. BTW this is an excellent thread with an exchange of a lot of good information.

 

[RD.]

Agreed. The quoted link at the bottom is an old discussion, that went in a few different directions over time - but this comment in the quote below certainly drives home the point as to how overfeeding cannot just change the overall health of an African cichlid, but also their overall size in captivity, vs wild caught specimens. The person mentioned below brought home a few groups of WC specimens and collected hundreds of fish over his 6 month stay in Malawi.

Wild Caught Labidochromis caeruleus "Lion's Cove" | MonsterFishKeepers.com

11" Wild Caught C. moorii | MonsterFishKeepers.com

I couldn't agree more with neutrino. The fixation on growth seems to run rampant on forums, high protein, high calories, and maximum growth in minimum time. I don't own a trout farm, and never understood the logic behind this style of keeping fish in captivity, especially in home aquariums.

Years ago a local acquaintance who spent several months diving & collecting fish in Lake Malawi told me how much smaller most cichlid species were in the wild, than in his tanks at home. He was shocked. Up until actually seeing wild fish, in the wild, did he understand just how much he had been overfeeding all of his tanks over the years. Too many calories, period, the result being fish that were in some cases almost double in size to what they typically were in the lake.

IMHO growth in a fish, should be slow & even. A hungry fish is a healthy fish.

So when I see "Faster growth, longer fins, increased metabolism, healthier overall appearance." being advertised or promoted for a product, it causes me pause, especially when the only part of an analysis posted on the label, is a crude protein %.

 

[Trouser Cough]

I've got a dozen or so different feeds from different makers and I'll look through them to see if I can make any connection to what's in Ron's Big Boy sack. As you had mentioned RD, it's unlikely that he's running his own extruders w/ different dies and colorants... which would indicate that he's buying other's feed and repackaging it. I personally don't think there's anything wrong w/ that and maybe he just doesn't understand how to sort percentages after the product's been mixed.

I can't imagine that there's anything intentionally subversive in his labeling but I do agree that his response is evasive and he likely knows there's an issue.

 

[RD.]

As you had mentioned RD, it's unlikely that he's running his own extruders w/ different dies and colorants... which would indicate that he's buying other's feed and repackaging it.

Nope, it doesn't indicate that at all.

The basic formula is a unique blend of raw ingredients, many appear to be of high quality, some such as Red & Green Cabbage, Broccoli, Tomato, Kiwi, Apricot, Pear, Papaya, and Peach, a bit questionable in fish feed, but unique.

What his food indicates, is that a feed mill such as Zeigler, Skretting, or?, is producing his food, which I would guess is then shipped to Ron in bulk, and packaged at his location into his various bags, containers, etc. They even sell empty containers, with their private branded labels, for $5 a pop. Why not, if you have a bunch of extras laying around, and some people are willing to pay $5 for them. Empty 12oz container Ron's Cichlids Branded – Rons Cichlids
So, when the finished products are shipped from the feed mill, everyone knows exactly what the nutritional breakdown is, including but not limited to, min. crude protein %, min. crude fat %, crude fiber max %, moisture max %, ash max %, etc. - along with all of the various raw ingredients, in a proper manner, as in listed in order of predominance by weight, on an "as formulated" basis.

This isn't the wild-wild west, and according to their website Ron & company didn't just start selling fish food yesterday. Amazon is going to open Ron up to closer scrutiny, not only from consumer groups, but also from those who also work in the industry. My prediction is that there will be some tweaking of their labels down the road.

 

[LazyBones]

Whats everyone opinion on Kens fish food? Same thing as rons? Repackaged?

 

[JackEmerson]

Whats everyone opinion on Kens fish food? Same thing as rons? Repackaged?

I don't think Ron repackages other people's food. As RD. explained, Ron likely uses a commercial feed mill like Zeigler to cook it up (according to his specs) and then he puts a label on it.

That being said, here are the first line ingredients for Ken's cichlid pellets: Wheat, Fish Meal, Soybean Meal, Blood Pork Meal, Stabilized Fish Oil, etc.

Unless I am missing something, I would not feed this to my cichlids. The first/major ingredient is Wheat. Most other premium brands have wheat further down. And it also as Blood Pork Meal as item 4. No thanks! It does not sound like a good idea to feed land animals to cichlids. Again, I might be missing something (I am still learning), but I think there are much better brands than Ken's.

 

[LazyBones]

Agreed JackEmerson just was wondering how Kens is manufacturing his when there is healthier options. I do not feed my fish Kens i have been noticing similar looking pellets/sticks with smaller scale sellers and was wondering how everyone is doing it until RD mentioned feed mill