RTGs without certificates.

[Cheesetian]

will get back to you tmr, apologies for the delay, have been busy

Hey no problem Alex. You take your time.

IMO go for the legit ones with papers, don't support the black market/dodgy dealers...

I'm the one trying to sell the RTGs my friend.

Afaik it's illegal to own them without papers.

It's just a certificate and what's more i'm from a country that breeds these fishes so i don't think owning them without certificates is illegal.

Scan the aro get the chip number then make your own cert

Or scan the aro check the chip number then contact the farm and ask for a replacement cert

If you know for sure they are red tail gold then the cert is not that important if the guy was trying to sell them as xback then it would be nice to have a cert with the farm name to confirm they are xback

The chip is more important than a cert if you sell the aro expect to get a little less than a aro with a cert

I'll try doing that but i don't know if they'll give me a replacement certificate cos' i'm not the first owner of the fishes. Read below, i'll elaborate a bit more.

Are aros required to be chipped in the country they are bred in? I always thought they were chipped only if exported.

Good question. I don't know whether a fish bred in Singapore and eventually ends up in a tank in Singapore requires a chip or not. A friend is giving me the fishes but i'm pretty sure they were locally bred. Waiting on Alex for some answers.



Okay guys i have to clarify some things cos' it seems a few of you are misinterpreting what i'm trying to say. I'm not buying any fishes. A friend will be giving me these RTGs and i intend to sell them off soon after because i don't have a tank big enough to keep them. What i'm asking is do you think it's possible for me to sell them off without their certificates because my friend can't seem to find them.

 

[Spiritofthesoul]

No expert on singapore law here, but i think it is better be safe than sorry. You know how strict law is in singapore. Post something about making a bomb and the police would come knocking on your doorsteps in minutes.

 

[Cheesetian]

Your point being?

 

[ausarow]

an rtg in singapore without a tag is illegal. someone could lose the certificate but that is why they are tagged.
the premise is they would be either illegally poached or illegally sold. ie you could be selling illegally if they have no chip. there are a lot of non cites licensed farms. these fish are illegal because they or the parents could have come from the wild with no permits.
if you breed these fish, you are supposed to claim the breeding ( must be from tagged fish) before you can get a farm permit -before you can sell.
unlicensed breeders/sellers undermine the process of trying to conserve the species because they should be able to police and identify cites approved farm bred fish.
all non tagged fish are looked upon as being wild caught.

so lets say either you get caught selling or the buyer gets caught with an untagged fish you and they would face a hefty fine. Agri vet pet management authority and cites and licensed farmers and some hobbyists that are concerned about poached fish will take exception to what you would like to do. the poster above is pointing out that you might be advertising your potential law breaking to the authorities.

 

[ausarow]

asian arows are only supposed to be bred and sold in countries that hold the farms that are licensed. there are not supposed to be countries breeding them for sale other than that. hobbyist tank breeds are so rare that i have never heard of CITES acting on that but technically the parents should have tags, not only that but the tag should match a tag number that was legally exported. it is not even legal to export a tagged fish without approval from the relevent authority.

 

[Cheesetian]

My friend's fishes are tagged and bought through legal means to begin with. He just doesn't know where his late father kept the certificates for the fishes. I am not exporting anything. I intend to find a buyer in Singapore who doesn't mind buying the fishes without the certificates. I don't think there's anything illegal about that is there?

 

[T1KARMANN]

All Asian aros are meant to be chipped before sale unless it's a back street breeder who is not licences

I think it's the AVA you have in Singapore and wouldn't like to mess with them

RTG are so cheap in Singapore why not just go and buy RTG from a farm instead of your friend without cert

Like I said the aros from your friend should have a chip then scan and make your own cert it's the chip that's important not the cert as the cert is just a flash thing to hang on your wall

 

[Spiritofthesoul]

my point being either

1. Reject them
2. Keep them

I would go with 1. Why not ask your friend to sell them off himself? And btw i doubt AVA would even check as long as you stick with private sales (Seriously there are so many aro keepers in sg i doubt they have enough man power to check on each and every one of them to make sure they are tagged). Anyway even if you are caught without the cert, as long as the fish is tagged, you should be safe.

 

[ausarow]

if tagged, no worries at all. i guess how is a person to know if a fish is tagged or not if the seller says so and buyer has no scanner on hand. its not like there is a law against resale but there may be something about certs in cites paperworks.

yep its AVA, it used to go under another name years back.
agri food and veterinary authority now.

they sure dont have the manpower to check on all arow owner but they do have various ways of finding out some things.

for example.. not that this really covers this scenario..which would be legal with tags.

Poaching of Wild Animals

Under the Wild Animals and Birds Act, it is an offence for any person to kill, take or keep any wild animal or bird, other than those specified in the Schedule such as mynas, pigeons and crows, without a license. Any person found doing so shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding S$1,000 and to the forfeiture of the animal.

The public can call AVA at Tel: 62270670 should they see any suspected poaching activities, with the following information:

- Type of animals poached;
- Location of the animal poaching activity;
- Frequency of poaching;
- Description of accompanying vehicles used for the activity (model, colour, licence number);
- Other useful information (photographs, equipments used for poaching, poachers description);
- Contact details of informant

All information provided to AVA shall be kept strictly confidential.

now that dosent take into account of what CITES can fine someone. CITES would ussually be tipped off by someone, or by an authority at say an airport upon finding contraband. with all the arow farms around now, hundreds unlicensed, i wouldnt be surprised if twenty percent of fishes produced are illegal. the whole cites thing is becoming an eyewash.
land is so scarce in singapore, ports are monitored well and most illegal production and trade is not in singapore. they would most likley be legit but could come from your impoundments.

 

[ausarow]

in singapore, your arows even with tags are fairly cheap. buyers will prefer your tagged fish and dont have to pay much as a percentage to remain within the laws. though approved imports or exports would come with higher prices due to paperwork and cost and probably retail markups. local production makes for cheaper rtgs still and its not like availability is low. you could expect a couple of hundred each maybe.
depends on which avenue you sell to. advertise in your local classifieds might be the best way.