rtm mated with gold mota... is that a hybrid?

[Toby_H]

Using the dictionary definition of “hybrid”…
　

(Genetics) The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

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I would consider &#8220;Red Tiger Mota&#8221; and &#8220;Gold Mota&#8221; to be two races or varieties/variants of the same species&#8230;
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Therefore per the definition of the word hybrid&#8230; they would scientifically be classified as a hybrid&#8230;
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Within the hobby, I typically see the term &#8220;hybrid&#8221; used to describe fish that are the offspring of more than a single species&#8230;
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Therefore in those terms, this would not be a hybrid&#8230;
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hybridization is when you take two different SPECIES and mix them
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This statement is inconsistent with the definition of the term hybrid.

 

[dogofwar]

It's hard enough to define "species" let alone "hybrid". Without getting wrapped up in semantics:

- If you cross a mota with a RTM, you're going to get a fish that is different than either of the original (authentic) strains. If that is the goal...and you label the offspring as such...and do your very best to make sure that they don't fall into the hands of someone that's going to pass them on as what they're not....fine.

- But if the goal is to maintain a line of fish authentic (as possible in an aquarium) to a particular wild population, then don't cross them.

There's a mythology and drama around the word "hybrid" as a litmus between good and bad. I'd much rather see intentional hybrids like OB peacocks and flowerhorns sold as what they are (and not easily confused with wild-type fish)...than to see a moto x RTM cross (not technically a hybrid) sold as one or the other.

Matt

 

[Gatling]

So that means if you cross a gold dovii and regular dovii you would get hybrid
and anything but a dovii?Someone please explain?

 

[oHsNaP1337]

The problem here is the word "Variant" that is used to separate a regular Mota with a Red Mota, "Variant" is a word that fish keepers imposed on these fishes to separate color differences, not a genetic difference.

 

[Toby_H]

The problem here is the word "Variant" that is used to separate a regular Mota with a Red Mota, "Variant" is a word that fish keepers imposed on these fishes to separate color differences, not a genetic difference.

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But every single characteristic of a living organism is determined by genetics... including it's color...
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Therefore "genetically dissimilar parents" becomes a very hard term to define, as every two things will have some degree of "genetic dissimilarity"...
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Another reason why 'arm chair biologists' have such a hard time coming to simple answers to complex questions... even when we have all the facts at hand...
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But for this specific conversation&#8230; couldn&#8217;t we consider two different color varieties as two different &#8220;races&#8221;? If so then different races was included as an example of &#8216;dissimilar&#8217; in the definition of a hybrid.

 

[Modest_Man]

The problem here is the word "Variant" that is used to separate a regular Mota with a Red Mota, "Variant" is a word that fish keepers imposed on these fishes to separate color differences, not a genetic difference.

Incorrect. The "red tiger" variant is collected from certain watersheds independent of the "normal" or "gold" variant. It's just that their most defining characteristic that is noticeable to the human eye is the color difference.

 

[Jason_S]

It's hard enough to define "species" let alone "hybrid". Without getting wrapped up in semantics:

- If you cross a mota with a RTM, you're going to get a fish that is different than either of the original (authentic) strains. If that is the goal...and you label the offspring as such...and do your very best to make sure that they don't fall into the hands of someone that's going to pass them on as what they're not....fine.

- But if the goal is to maintain a line of fish authentic (as possible in an aquarium) to a particular wild population, then don't cross them.

There's a mythology and drama around the word "hybrid" as a litmus between good and bad. I'd much rather see intentional hybrids like OB peacocks and flowerhorns sold as what they are (and not easily confused with wild-type fish)...than to see a moto x RTM cross (not technically a hybrid) sold as one or the other.

Matt

Again, that is incorrect. Technically speaking, yes they would be a hybrid. There are 2 different races, Gold Mota and RTM, so crossing them together would create a hybrid by the technical definition of the word. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. My response is in no way based on what I think is right or wrong.

So that means if you cross a gold dovii and regular dovii you would get hybrid
and anything but a dovii?Someone please explain?

Yes, the resultant fry would technically be 'hybrids'. They would still be Parachromis dovii, but you'd be crossing 2 different distinct races of the same species, which according to the definition, creates a hybrid.

 

[BigPic]

All of this is based on scientific descriptions of fish. . . to all those that wouldn't consider the RTM X Gold a hybrid, what happens if an ichthyologist decides that there are enough differences to make the RTM a species on it's own? Would it be a hybrid at that point? What I am trying to get across is that species "status" is based on human choice, it's something that WE decide. Is it ok to cross it if it's just a color morph? Is it ok to cross them if they ARE different "species"? That's for everyone to decide for themselves.

 

[ewok]

this thread is giving me a headache lol...
i'm not going to do anything - just curious

 

[oHsNaP1337]

&#12288;Another reason why 'arm chair biologists' have such a hard time coming to simple answers to complex questions... even when we have all the facts at hand...

Exactly, this why I think you are having a hard time understanding the simple fact that seems to elude you, the fact of the matter is that both the red and yellow Mota's bares the same classification, "Parachromis Motaguense". Unless you are saying that the scientist who classified both the red and yellow as Motaguense are wrong and should of gave either one of the mota's it's own species designation, because apparently the scientist didn't see a big enough genetic difference in the red and yellows to classify one of them as another species.

Furthermore, according to the hybrid definition that you keep referring too where it says "different varieties", if a light skinned African American women(variety) has a baby with a Dark skin African man from Africa, then the baby is considered a hybrid? The term "different varieties" as we read it is ambiguous and is open for interpretation, further definition as to what specifically constitutes it as a "different variety" is needed.

The term "race" that the definition uses is what I think got most people confused. People have a pre disposition of the term "race" and they apply it to the fish but with a human social construct of what race is. Asian race, Black race, White race is what we think of when we hear the term race to categorize a group, but scientifically for humans, this is incorrect. Humans have not diverged genetically enough to constitute their own races, but in everyday society we often here these terms use to refer to a group of people of different "color" but this is not scientifically sound since there is truly only one race of humans, and that would be the human race. For animals, in this case, fish, the term "race" is use synonymously with the term "subspecies", the red and yellow Motaguense is not genetically diverse enough to be granted the classification of "race" or sub-species hence the single classification for both Mota colors.

[FONT=&quot] Many of the common terms we use in the fish keeping community such as variant, strain, race and color morph was actually created by the fish keeping community to differentiate fish of the same species but different colors, but this probably isn&#8217;t truly accurate and lack scientific backing. Until one of the red or yellow Mota&#8217;s are re-classified into their own &#8220;race&#8221; or sub-species, then they are the same, scientifically speaking, and offspring of the two colors does not constitute them as hybrids. [/FONT]