rtm mated with gold mota... is that a hybrid?

[dogofwar]

Rio Blanco (Honduras), where the red tiger is found, is a different collection location than the type locality for p. Motaguense (in Guatemala).

I'm interested to know if anyone is or has scientifically described all of the "new" fish from rio blanco?

Matt

 

[dogofwar]

From reading over at the cichlid room companion, the rtm is an undescribed (by science) fish.

Matt

 

[thorzep]

i would say no

 

[thor meeki]

From reading over at the cichlid room companion, the rtm is an undescribed (by science) fish.

Matt

Well if it's undescribed it's undescribed.
I will say not a hybrid until described. (scientifically)

I don't care for the idea of mixing the two.
To me, it's like painting over a Picasso.
It's natures art work & I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[fish_n_vw]

I must apoligize for my rude remarks last night I am not a rude person and I am very sorry if I came off as such. I think I was fishing for the phrase exploiting of a grey and vauge area within our lanuage. In the recent posts it was shown that this is an undiscribed fish. So who in the first place put the name p. Mota to that fish. Is it arguably not p. Mota is a better question. If the research has not been done then nobody within this discussion has the degree to lable it as such.

 

[darth pike]

Your statement is incorrect....


Subspecies
(n.)
A group somewhat less distinct than species usually are, but based on characters more important than those which characterize ordinary varieties; often, a geographical variety or race.


Subspecies - Noun
1. (biology) a taxonomic group that is a division of a species; usually arises as a consequence of geographical isolation within a species.
(synonym) race
(hypernym) taxonomic group, taxonomic category, taxon
(classification) biology, biological science

Hmmmm, well here is an update to your turn of last century dictionary.

The term race is commonly used to refer to a branch or division of the species possessing genetically transmitted physical traits which distinguish it from other branches or divisions of the same level. Adding to this definition, it will here also be defined as including only those individuals who are capable of reproduction with each other without the loss or significant diminishment or alteration of the racially-distinctive genetic traits of either parent stock. The genetically transmitted traits which distinguish a race from other divisions at the same level (i.e., other races) should not be diminished or lost by reproduction within the race. If racially-distinctive traits are lost or diminished by within-group reproduction then the population group is at a level of division too broad and inclusive to be accurately defined as a race. If it is too narrow to be defined as a species, as it does not include all those populations capable of interbreeding, then it is at a level between race and species, which will here be referred to as a subspecies.

As I stated, differant meanings .. differant levels.

 

[darth pike]

I must apoligize for my rude remarks last night I am not a rude person and I am very sorry if I came off as such. I think I was fishing for the phrase exploiting of a grey and vauge area within our lanuage. In the recent posts it was shown that this is an undiscribed fish. So who in the first place put the name p. Mota to that fish. Is it arguably not p. Mota is a better question. If the research has not been done then nobody within this discussion has the degree to lable it as such.

No worries. Hell, before I read Dr. Anton Lamboj's book, "The Cichlid Fishes of Western Africa," ... I didn't think mixing races was considered a hybrid either. It was after reading about Pelvicachromis taeniatus and it's dozens of differant races that made me look up the actual, scientific deffination.

 

[Toby_H]

I’ve never claimed that “science” ever distinguished RTM & GM as two separate races… Though I feel that the hobby has verified that each ‘type’ has differences & breeds true and is therefore a different something (race, variant, something&#8230. Science just hasn’t caught up with us.
　
I would suggest that as true genetic science is somewhat new, and financing genetic research on SA/CA Cichlids is not abundant. Not enough “science” is available to clearly define/categorize/classify these animals.
　
It seems that theory has been offered some verification…
　
Just because not enough “science” has been offered to classify “genetically dissimilar” specimen as variants / races / subspecies as such, doesn’t mean they are not in fact variants / races / subspecies.

 

[dogofwar]

I agree - "science" (i.e. formal description of fish) is often behind the hobby. These are fish that were discovered, brought back to the US, bred and distributed by hobbyists.

Just as we now know that a (Aulonocara) peacock isn't a peacock isn't a peacock (or a Pseudotropheus zebra isn't a zebra isn't a zebra), we now know that central american cichlids also differ geographically as well.

Are they different enough to be scientifically classified as different species? Who knows. Are they different enough to keep pure (if that is the intent)? Absolutely...

Does that mean that fish that are cross-locale or certifiably hybrids are "bad"? Only if they're labeled wrong. Which is the same for wild-type fish...

Matt

I’ve never claimed that “science” ever distinguished RTM & GM as two separate races… Though I feel that the hobby has verified that each ‘type’ has differences & breeds true and is therefore a different something (race, variant, something…). Science just hasn’t caught up with us.
　
I would suggest that as true genetic science is somewhat new, and financing genetic research on SA/CA Cichlids is not abundant. Not enough “science” is available to clearly define/categorize/classify these animals.
　
It seems that theory has been offered some verification…
　
Just because not enough “science” has been offered to classify “genetically dissimilar” specimen as variants / races / subspecies as such, doesn’t mean they are not in fact variants / races / subspecies.

 

[fishfarm]

They are both races of P motoguense, not a hybrid, just label as Aquarium strain if you sell the fry, The Rio Blanco is a small stream that is a tributery of the Rio Copan, easier to collect in than the main river, All these locations are in the Rio Motogue river basin which all the P. motoguense races reside. Ken