short body genes?

[gutted]

Not the same thing at all, no bp blood in sb cons as a rule...but yes in sb cons it is a recessive.

You never stated that there was a difference.

The sb gene is dominant, if you cross an sb to a normal bodied fish you'll get 50% normal and 50% sb of varing lengths, good luck!

Bp's are the origin of the sb body type in most if not all hybrids, and I beg to differ, you do indeed get 50% sb fry in the pairing you described, it's just that they vary in length greatly. Some are almost full length, some are extremely short.

Some SB's could have BP blood but definitely not all. Oscars, green terrors, rams and mollies are a few that definitely dont have any BP blood. If you inbreed enough you'll get some SB.

If breeding a BP to anything else would produce 50% SB's you'd see more SB texas from all the red texas' attempts.

 

[izzy_here]

You never stated that there was a difference.




Some SB's could have BP blood but definitely not all. Oscars, green terrors, rams and mollies are a few that definitely dont have any BP blood. If you inbreed enough you'll get some SB.

If breeding a BP to anything else would produce 50% SB's you'd see more SB texas from all the red texas' attempts.

I didn't state there was a difference because we were discussing hybrids...I didn't think I needed to.
This thread isn't about Oscars, Green Terror's, ram's, or mollies...not sure what relevance they have here.
How would we see more sb's from the creation of red texas when most breeders don't breed for that trait? The only way you see a lot of sb fry, is if you separate them from their full length siblings, the reason for this is because if the full length fry don't kill the sb's outright, they kill them by simply out-competing them...not noticed the same absence of sb rt's that you seem to have, I see a lot of them just on aquabid alone. And as I stated before, just because that fish isn't shaped like your ideal of a short body fish does not mean it isn't short bodied.
I've yet to see any proof that hybrids get their sb genes from anything other than parrot blood. Short bodies show up in the first generation in hybrid spawns, hybrids meaning bp's, kkp, fh, red texas etc. That means it's a dominant gene, every NON hybrid fish (oscars, Green Terror's, ram's, mollies) expressing the sb trait, invariably pass this trait along as a recessive. A clear demonstration of the difference between the two gene's in question. Both genes produce a sb fish, that does not mean they are the same gene.

 

[crush329]

I didn't state there was a difference because we were discussing hybrids...I didn't think I needed to.
This thread isn't about Oscars, Green Terror's, ram's, or mollies...not sure what relevance they have here.
How would we see more sb's from the creation of red texas when most breeders don't breed for that trait? The only way you see a lot of sb fry, is if you separate them from their full length siblings, the reason for this is because if the full length fry don't kill the sb's outright, they kill them by simply out-competing them...not noticed the same absence of sb rt's that you seem to have, I see a lot of them just on aquabid alone. And as I stated before, just because that fish isn't shaped like your ideal of a short body fish does not mean it isn't short bodied.
I've yet to see any proof that hybrids get their sb genes from anything other than parrot blood. Short bodies show up in the first generation in hybrid spawns, hybrids meaning bp's, kkp, fh, red texas etc. That means it's a dominant gene, every NON hybrid fish (oscars, Green Terror's, ram's, mollies) expressing the sb trait, invariably pass this trait along as a recessive. A clear demonstration of the difference between the two gene's in question. Both genes produce a sb fish, that does not mean they are the same gene.

Oh... So to see a shortbody within the first generation makes it a dominant gene? Well here is a vid of mine showing my bp/carpintis hybrids at 2 months... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJf_xdAKRkU. Now mind you these are from my pair that always ate their wigglers... so I pulled the eggs and raised this whole batch. As you can see plenty are swimming, some bigger than others, but clearly there wasn't many short bodies(none shaped like the bp).
Now I go back to the op's question again... He wanted to know how strong a bonsai's genes are. In order to be considered "bonsai" there is only 1 shape that fits... Its not a bonsai if its not shaped like a bp and the % of getting a bonsai would NOT be 50%. Hopefully we can agree on that...

 

[izzy_here]

Oh... So to see a shortbody within the first generation makes it a dominant gene? Well here is a vid of mine showing my bp/carpintis hybrids at 2 months... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJf_xdAKRkU. Now mind you these are from my pair that always ate their wigglers... so I pulled the eggs and raised this whole batch. As you can see plenty are swimming, some bigger than others, but clearly there wasn't many short bodies(none shaped like the bp).
Now I go back to the op's question again... He wanted to know how strong a bonsai's genes are. In order to be considered "bonsai" there is only 1 shape that fits... Its not a bonsai if its not shaped like a bp and the % of getting a bonsai would NOT be 50%. Hopefully we can agree on that...

Yes we can agree on that, and again I say that sort of prediction would be hard to make.
I've raised more than a few sb green texas, I created/maintained a strain of them for 3+ generations.
I will tell you that all the short looking fish in your spawn will look a fair bit different when they mature a little more. I think you're gonna be very surprised at how they'll look.
Very interesting spawn from your fish, there looks to be a lot of sb fry, including several that are going to have a very bonsai-like body type. You really should separate all the sb fry...it's helpful to learn to recognize the sb's at a very young age. The sooner you separate them the better. You easily have 2-3 dozen in that 55 that are going to have amazing shape for an sb. Guessing you'd have had a lot more if you'd separated them earlier...
When I was raising a batch of sb texas I culled very heavily from approximately 1/2 inch, any fish that looked full length was culled immediately. I'd still usually have to cull again, but then I was going for a very extreme balloon belly look, I think they turned out very nicely.

A male from my line.


These pics belong to Aquatic Aggression. They're from this thread, http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?512939-Any-shortbody-breeders-still-on-mfk

 

[izzy_here]

This strain was eventually bred out to pure escondido carpintis twice, each time using an extremely short female to a pure male. Even at 75+% pure carpintis blood, I got literally dozens and dozens of the extreme sb type I wanted. From this experience I can say that at 2-3 generations of sb X sb you will see the sb trait start to stabilize in the strain. Most if not all of your fry will be sb, but length will vary greatly, then at the 2nd or 3rd generation you start to see more uniformity of type. This is assuming you're choosing the most perfect type according to your ideal. Learning to identify sb fry at a very early stage is vital, they will not thrive in the company of longer bodied siblings. Also remember because of they're hybrid nature sb strains don't have a very stable genetic code, it's not "fixed" as it is in a natural species, they will have the occasional throwback that has a longer body type. The odd thing is, if you then began to choose for that new type, it will start to breed true. I believe whatever body type you choose for will breed true, if you line breed for it & cull vigorously.

 

[babyfishbreeder]

so...what I'm getting from all the discussion is that...

yes, I can get sb in the first generation but not as extreme as bonsai stock

is that right?

then I have to line breed to improve and fix the form

 

[babyfishbreeder]

so now

I have a pair of bonsai/sb fh and I can expect the fry to be mostly sb with a small chance of normal bodied fish (since I don't know their parentage)

then I am now trying to pair up a normal bodied fh to a bp and I can expect a good number of fry to have shorter bodies than usual

 

[izzy_here]

so...what I'm getting from all the discussion is that...

yes, I can get sb in the first generation but not as extreme as bonsai stock

is that right?

then I have to line breed to improve and fix the form

You're partially right, you should get at least some of the type you want...how many? I don't know. However you are correct on the rest of it.

 

[izzy_here]

so now

I have a pair of bonsai/sb fh and I can expect the fry to be mostly sb with a small chance of normal bodied fish (since I don't know their parentage)

then I am now trying to pair up a normal bodied fh to a bp and I can expect a good number of fry to have shorter bodies than usual

Yes, I believe you are correct on both of these.

 

[crush329]

I also agree with both post... The only thing I disagreed with was the 50%. Another thread I was part of was the superbowl spawn and we had a few short bodies but none shaped like the bp. But I want to also add that I never did cull for "sb's" so there could have been more produced from that batch. As far as the 2 month hybrids in the vid... They are over a year now and I kept and still have about 15 of them. I didn't see any obvious sb's at their size of 2 months or I would have pulled them. I showed the 2 month update of my texas fry to show at 2 months you can tell if you have short bodies or not.
Later today I will post a couple pics of what to look for in your fry so you will know if u have short bodies or not.