I think the feeding adjustments are a good place to start, but how are you gauging the rise in ammonia as sudden? How often do you test?
Sudden ammonia rise
- Thread starter HoundsNTrout
- Start date
Once I'm covinced the bio filter is working I usually test water every 3 days maybe every 4 days while fish are under 2-3 inches. THen every other day, and now every day. Once I see a problem its gotta be tested every day. This time is baffling. The level pretty much skyrocketed over night. From ZERO to about 4ppm. deadly. Had a few swirling around in there.
SO emptied tank. Did no feeding for past three days.
The only thing I can think of that quite possibly happened was I had to go in to the ER ( hospital ) I was in there for 3 days and the water temp's dropped in the tanks to 40 degrees. I have submersible heaters to keep and maintain 55 degree water for the rainbows and 50 for the brooks. I just forgot. I am thinking that might have "killed' that 50 to 58 degree BB ?
OR slowed it down .
The odd thing is even after emptying the tank, the number just seems to always be around 1-2ppm now, so not getting better even after no feedings. I also like I said before always empty 50% of the water out every day regardless since there are so many fish in there.
I am probably going to have to add additional barrel. But why was it working totally fine then pretty much stopped.
Matter of fact I've been testing 2X daily right not just to see if there is improvement. THere is not or very minimal. Also the Nitrites are slightly elevated too.
I"m using Prime obviously to save my fish.
I have tested the well water too. Zilch of anything.
SO emptied tank. Did no feeding for past three days.
The only thing I can think of that quite possibly happened was I had to go in to the ER ( hospital ) I was in there for 3 days and the water temp's dropped in the tanks to 40 degrees. I have submersible heaters to keep and maintain 55 degree water for the rainbows and 50 for the brooks. I just forgot. I am thinking that might have "killed' that 50 to 58 degree BB ?
OR slowed it down .
The odd thing is even after emptying the tank, the number just seems to always be around 1-2ppm now, so not getting better even after no feedings. I also like I said before always empty 50% of the water out every day regardless since there are so many fish in there.
I am probably going to have to add additional barrel. But why was it working totally fine then pretty much stopped.
Matter of fact I've been testing 2X daily right not just to see if there is improvement. THere is not or very minimal. Also the Nitrites are slightly elevated too.
I"m using Prime obviously to save my fish.
I have tested the well water too. Zilch of anything.
There are a few possibilities here.
Generally speaking, nitrifying bacteria oxidises ammonia and nitrites via oxygen, which results in nitrates. Most species of nitrifiers also rely on alkalinity which we measure via a KH test.
Since your tank is obviously producing ammonia all the time(any tank is), the limitation is always 1st and more than likely
xygen and 2nd the alkalinity is being exhausted (KH)
The socks that are blocking so fast will limit oxygenation. You need to seriously look into this and setup the system in a way where nothing blocks the intakes(not familiar with your filter) But there should be no reduction in flow/surface agitation and you should increase oxygenation in any other possible means you can think of...depending on your set up.
Additionally, get a KH test kit. Test the tap vs tank. You want to have a readable KH of min 1-2 at any time. Nitrifiers in tanks are not just bacteria but also archaea and they all differ quite from each other in their basic needs but generally those are the terms for most tanks.
Adding a second barrel will help not because of increased media, but because of adding more water volume to the system, thus diluting the problem. 55G media is plenty if it is oxygenated sufficiently. Kh and in turn Ph should not be plummeting down as it will cause a spike....
You're dong 50% water changes daily so it is quite odd that you're getting those spikes. There's an issue with the biological filtration more than likely right now, otherwise with that amount of water changes, there should be nothing readable..even in an overstocked tank. So again, look into oxygen and alkalinity...
Also, if I were you I'd look into setting up a hydroponics system instead if you want to support large amount of fish.
Generally speaking, nitrifying bacteria oxidises ammonia and nitrites via oxygen, which results in nitrates. Most species of nitrifiers also rely on alkalinity which we measure via a KH test.
Since your tank is obviously producing ammonia all the time(any tank is), the limitation is always 1st and more than likely
xygen and 2nd the alkalinity is being exhausted (KH)The socks that are blocking so fast will limit oxygenation. You need to seriously look into this and setup the system in a way where nothing blocks the intakes(not familiar with your filter) But there should be no reduction in flow/surface agitation and you should increase oxygenation in any other possible means you can think of...depending on your set up.
Additionally, get a KH test kit. Test the tap vs tank. You want to have a readable KH of min 1-2 at any time. Nitrifiers in tanks are not just bacteria but also archaea and they all differ quite from each other in their basic needs but generally those are the terms for most tanks.
Adding a second barrel will help not because of increased media, but because of adding more water volume to the system, thus diluting the problem. 55G media is plenty if it is oxygenated sufficiently. Kh and in turn Ph should not be plummeting down as it will cause a spike....
You're dong 50% water changes daily so it is quite odd that you're getting those spikes. There's an issue with the biological filtration more than likely right now, otherwise with that amount of water changes, there should be nothing readable..even in an overstocked tank. So again, look into oxygen and alkalinity...
Also, if I were you I'd look into setting up a hydroponics system instead if you want to support large amount of fish.
There are a few possibilities here.
Generally speaking, nitrifying bacteria oxidises ammonia and nitrites via oxygen, which results in nitrates. Most species of nitrifiers also rely on alkalinity which we measure via a KH test.
Since your tank is obviously producing ammonia all the time(any tank is), the limitation is always 1st and more than likely
The socks that are blocking so fast will limit oxygenation. You need to seriously look into this and setup the system in a way where nothing blocks the intakes(not familiar with your filter) But there should be no reduction in flow/surface agitation and you should increase oxygenation in any other possible means you can think of...depending on your set up.
Additionally, get a KH test kit. Test the tap vs tank. You want to have a readable KH of min 1-2 at any time. Nitrifiers in tanks are not just bacteria but also archaea and they all differ quite from each other in their basic needs but generally those are the terms for most tanks.
Adding a second barrel will help not because of increased media, but because of adding more water volume to the system, thus diluting the problem. 55G media is plenty if it is oxygenated sufficiently. Kh and in turn Ph should not be plummeting down as it will cause a spike....
You're dong 50% water changes daily so it is quite odd that you're getting those spikes. There's an issue with the biological filtration more than likely right now, otherwise with that amount of water changes, there should be nothing readable..even in an overstocked tank. So again, look into oxygen and alkalinity...
Also, if I were you I'd look into setting up a hydroponics system instead if you want to support large amount of fish.
Very nice post, the kind of stuff I'm looking for. great stuff.
Since I do 25% water changes 2X daily, the ph remains nice. Especially for trout, right aroung 7.8 to 8 . Rarely changes.
Dissolved oxygen levels are almost always in the 7 to 9 range. However, what is going through my barrel bio filter I have been concerned about. (in other words what sort of oxygen is in there as opposed to in the tank ) My turnover rate however is exactly the same as the tanks capacity, 300 GPH goes into and out of the filter. Also this new sock filter seems to be turning over the same amount yet still catching the medium to small crap.
I WILL get some pick's and quick video if I can get it to upload. I have a pump with spnoge filter over it to keep larger debris/crap from entering the bio filter. Question would be why bother with even HAVING a sponge filter over the water entering the bio filter? I just thought it would start building up fast. BUt maybe I"ll take that off too. Since these new socks seem to be kicking ass. I also manually siphen off any debris and crap I see on bottom of tank with a sump pump. NOt much there. It all seems to be collecting in the socks.
SOCKS might have been my problem all the this time?
That pump goes down to the bottom of the bio filter with a 45 degree angle and swirls the water. Water level rises I have an outlet on top much larger than the inlet just in case. So that water dumps into my tank. It aerates quite well.
I also use a 2" X 12" stone bubbler. Always set to high flow.
I also have a 300gph pump on bottom of tank I JUST added that is set up to circulate water in a circular motion and the sock pump is on bottom grabbing most of that and has NO filter on the end, fish are too big to get sucked up into that.
TODAY I just added my new sock filters slightly more micron rated. THey are doing a lot more aeration. THey hang maybye 4 inches above the water level to add even more aeration.
So, my next thought was to maybe add a stone/bubbler to the bottom of my barrel?
I'll grab some photos to explain some more. Thanks for this response.
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I think the turnover rate is quite low....if I am reading that correctly...The system only turns the tank water over once in one hour, reduced by the resistance of media, etc....so its practically taking more than an hour for the tank water to get cycled through the barrell...This could be creating your problem....more filtration, turn over through the media is needed in my opinion.
Yes, what matters is what oxygen levels are in the barrel, which is the place of high demand. It never hurts to make sure enough oxygen is supplied to the filter media...
Ideally, a healthy biofilter has "clean" media all the time to prevent heterotrophic bacteria from taking over the available surfaces. Heterotrophic bacteria decomposes organics in the presence or absence of oxygen. The difference is the waste product it produces depending on the enviroment. In anaerobic filters/low oxygen/dirty filters, denitrification can occur, which results in no ammonia being converted and nitrates turning back into nitrites-results is spikes, as the full denitrification process rarely happens....
In the presence of oxygen, heterotrophs generally convert organics to ammonia, ammonia to nitrites, CO2 is realeased but the process is by a large multitude less efficient than that of nitrifying bacteria. - again resulting in spikes as they can't cope with the bioload, can't turn nitrites to nitrates, and at the same time outcompete the slower to multiply nitrifying bacteria/archaa fpr available surfaces and oxygen. Heterotrophs are important in oxygenated substrate for that same reason, as they decompose organics "the healthy way" but that should not happen in the biofilter....
I always have prefilter sponge on the intakes of all my filters, for the reasons described above. It is essential for healthy biofiltration. The main filter media should be as clean as possible at all times. Oxygen is the major limiting factor to biofiltration...In a dirty filter, there's little oxygen. To supply enough oxygen, one also needs enough turn over through the media as well....as mentioned above.
The pre-filter sponges should be coarse enough as to never restrict the flow going in but prevent debris going in. They are the ones one should wash regularly.
Generally, when it comes to filtration and turn over, the size of the filter/media should be 10% of the tank volume and the turn over should be 7-10 times the tank volume an hour. In your case that means 30G filter(you've got 55G) and minimum 7x300G =2100G/H turn over an hour! You've got 7 times less turn over than that needed for functional setup, especially a very well stocked one...With just 300G/H turn over you're looking at keeping that tank severely understocked to function well...
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So go with say a 600GPH pump and see if that makes the difference? Should that be my next step here? Never had this happen til now. Raised 1500 four incher's in there with no problems really.
I honestly don't think the little bubbler stone I put in the barrel is gonna do much. It wont' HURT but I don't see it really amounting to much, maybe it WILL be enough to do the trick.
Guess I'll know in the morning. If its lower than 2ppm then its doings something. lol
I put the sponge deal back on the inlet pump going into bio filter.
I want to see if I can get this back to normal before adding another barrel, because I already replace roughly 50% of the water so that 55G in a 330tank SHOULD work. ( like it was ).
Can't get my video uploaded as expected. Is there a trick to getting mp4 downloaded on this site?
I honestly don't think the little bubbler stone I put in the barrel is gonna do much. It wont' HURT but I don't see it really amounting to much, maybe it WILL be enough to do the trick.
Guess I'll know in the morning. If its lower than 2ppm then its doings something. lol
I put the sponge deal back on the inlet pump going into bio filter.
I want to see if I can get this back to normal before adding another barrel, because I already replace roughly 50% of the water so that 55G in a 330tank SHOULD work. ( like it was ).
Can't get my video uploaded as expected. Is there a trick to getting mp4 downloaded on this site?
OK, so I could even take my sump pump I use to change water, and attach that for a couple days and see what happens. Then I'll know that is "most llikely' the limiting factor here.
Most likely being in quotes. lol.
Because the sock filter is turning over 300GPH which I feel is descent enough for aeration, and the 2" X 12" stone and 300GPH pump along the bottom really keep the water movement fairly nice. Like I said the DO is rarely below 8 and ph is rarely below 7.8.
So, start with a much higher turn over rate then see if I have to add a barrel.
The hatchery I buy fish often or eggs is basically a recycled system as well. With very minimal fresh water coming in to tanks but those bio filters don't look huge comparatively but the water flow and movement is huge. Big pumps. THey are 2500 and 5000 Gallon tanks and bio filters look to be approx. 5 ft. tall X 3 ft. in diameter. Not huge comparing the tank sizes.
I also tried a sump pump once in these small 330G totes and just the pump itself heated the water from 60 to 70 over night. Does that often happen with ANY kind of pump? Just curious. It doesn't matter right now in Winter. My tanks are outside in a barn, insulated.
I don't like the 'old fashioned' watever the water temp's are that's what it is. Like the other hatchery. They use no bio filters just straight flow of fresh water. Because they can I guess. Not here, we'll kill the well.
thanks folks.
I think your best bet now is to try to get more flow through that barrel.
Also, how is your surface agitation like?
P.S. You can't upload the video directly here. You need to use an external website like youtube or some other similar host.
Also, how is your surface agitation like?
P.S. You can't upload the video directly here. You need to use an external website like youtube or some other similar host.
I took the below a few min ago for another thread but wanted to show what sort of surface movement amount you need for ample oxygen exchange...Compare to your tank. The tank has a turn over of 8.5 times the volume of the tank every hour.
