Tank Cycle Phobia?

[duanes]

Fish in cycling sometimes seems to take longer, instead of 6 to 8 weeks, it may be 8-12 to get to equilibrium. This may be why noobs end up with dead or sick tanks.
Even though experienced fish keepers are here on MFK, I try to tailor answers as if directed toward new keepers (I often answer without looking at IDs), there seem to be many who seem not to know what cycling actually means, and/or that water is different throughout the world, so some (not all ) fish may require different types.
I figure all experienced keepers know this stuff, or have techniques developed over years, that circumvent problems.

 

[LBDave]

Fish in cycling sometimes seems to take longer, instead of 6 to 8 weeks, it may be 8-12 to get to equilibrium. This may be why noobs end up with dead or sick tanks.
Even though experienced fish keepers are here on MFK, I try to tailor answers as if directed toward new keepers (I often answer without looking at IDs), there seem to be many who seem not to know what cycling actually means, and/or that water is different throughout the world, so some (not all ) fish may require different types.
I figure all experienced keepers know this stuff, or have techniques developed over years, that circumvent problems.

All of you guys are giving me good info. Really appreciate it. I think the new tank will need to find it's equilibrium. With fish and plants. Tank 1 has plants and high bio loaf and ph runs about 7.4-7.5. This new tank is running 8.2 or so. Probably in part due to the high ammonia.
I think that if the nitrites are 0, which I experienced today and about 1ppm ammonia goes down to near zero in a day I am in good shape.
I am so concerned about this that I will probably add a lot of water from the established tank to the new tank right before the move.
Easier to catch fish with a low water level anyway. This should help buffer the water differences, at least initially.
Trying to avoid sulking oscars and a pbass hunger strike! Sometimes I think I read too much!

 

[Zanzag]

That truly sounds like a proper, well thought out plan.

 

[Rocksor]

I am so concerned about this that I will probably add a lot of water from the established tank to the new tank right before the move.

Buffer the new water? You don't need old water from another tank in the new tank unless you are adding something to old water.

You need to know why the PH in your established tank is lower than the new tank.

 

[Zanzag]

Wouldnt adding the tank water help create an equilibrium for the ph so that the new tank is as similar water wise as the old one as possible

 

[LBDave]

Buffer the new water? You don't need old water from another tank in the new tank unless you are adding something to old water.

You need to know why the PH in your established tank is lower than the new tank.

Pure ammonia actually has a basic or alkaline pH. So in theory, ammonia should raise the pH of an aquarium. However, virtually all processes in the aquarium that produce ammonia, as well as the breakdown of ammonia produce hydrogen cations. Since pH is the negative log of hydrogen cation concentration, increasing this lowers the pH, negating the mildly basic pH of ammonia. So while ammonia has a basic pH, the processes that create it in an aquarium produce enough hydrogen ions to overcome this and lower the pH.

 

[LBDave]

Wouldnt adding the tank water help create an equilibrium for the ph so that the new tank is as similar water wise as the old one as possible

I am not overly concerned about the ph. Not even the ammonia. Just don't want to go through the hassle of a big cycle going on with a stocked tank. The "old" tank water will help the ph and include chemicals which the cycled stocked tank already has. Not saying all these are good chemicals. That's why we change water. But it could help the fish in transition albeit for a brief period of time. That and an equal temperature.

 

[skjl47]

Moving over more bacteria is better as long as there will be enough fish to support it.

period when you first add the fish in the tank where the bacterial colonies adjust to the levels of ammonia that the fish produce, so it's definitely possible to have a mini-cycle, or a week or two

I just move some media, and some decor (like logs or rocks) to the new tank

Hello; I do not need to chime in as you already have good advice and good advisers. I do understand your concerns but also figure you are a bit too concerned.
My take has been there are few advantages to a fishless cycle if you have access to established tanks. One of those advantages is to avoid the transfer of potential pathogens or parasites from an old tank. Since you have already moved some material that particular advantage does not apply.

I also do not completely follow the notion that only moving a complete filter will work. A common idea seems to be that somehow filters have a special way of attracting the beneficial bacteria (bb) that other solid material in a tank does not. I accept that power filters have water flow all the time as one positive advantage. I do figure most all other surfaces will have bb colonies as the power filters will be moving water around the rest of the tank. I do as duanes mentioned in that I move some form of solid material to a new setup.

The real issue in either a fish in or fishless cycle is getting the balance right when we start adding fish to a new tank. If we do not have enough bb then it can take days for a balance to come about. If we add a lot of small fish or a single big fish there can be a "mini-cycle" while the bb increase in population.
The better trick is to harvest a lot of bb surfaces so to have too much and the bb colonies die back to achieve a balance. The second part of this trick is to add fewer fish to the new setup at first and slowly add more later.

The bb form colonies as a sticky film on surfaces so old tank water is of almost no value

Good luck

 

[LBDave]

Hello; I do not need to chime in as you already have good advice and good advisers. I do understand your concerns but also figure you are a bit too concerned.
My take has been there are few advantages to a fishless cycle if you have access to established tanks. One of those advantages is to avoid the transfer of potential pathogens or parasites from an old tank. Since you have already moved some material that particular advantage does not apply.

I also do not completely follow the notion that only moving a complete filter will work. A common idea seems to be that somehow filters have a special way of attracting the beneficial bacteria (bb) that other solid material in a tank does not. I accept that power filters have water flow all the time as one positive advantage. I do figure most all other surfaces will have bb colonies as the power filters will be moving water around the rest of the tank. I do as duanes mentioned in that I move some form of solid material to a new setup.

The real issue in either a fish in or fishless cycle is getting the balance right when we start adding fish to a new tank. If we do not have enough bb then it can take days for a balance to come about. If we add a lot of small fish or a single big fish there can be a "mini-cycle" while the bb increase in population.
The better trick is to harvest a lot of bb surfaces so to have too much and the bb colonies die back to achieve a balance. The second part of this trick is to add fewer fish to the new setup at first and slowly add more later.

The bb form colonies as a sticky film on surfaces so old tank water is of almost no value

Good luck

Just tested tank. Ammonia added at about 12:00. Up to about 2.5ppm. Nitrites now about .2.
Nitrates over 50. So looks like nitrobacter is doing well.
Adding water from the established tank is not meant to transfer BB. It will help bring the ph down and add some of the chemicals the fish already live in. Think of it as sort of avoiding a 100% water change. I'm not going to add a lot.

 

[skjl47]

Adding water from the established tank is not meant to transfer BB. It will help bring the ph down and add some of the chemicals the fish already live in. Think of it as sort of avoiding a 100% water change. I'm not going to add a lot.

Hello; I decided to follow this thread in part because your initial post was intriguing. Also because I tend to read anything duanes does post. Again you have intrigued me with the bit about transferring some of the chemicals fish already live in. This is something I have never considered to do. I am not intending to be a critic, more as this is something I do not follow. I try to dilute and remove old tank water because it has such chemicals. New water will soon be loaded with the stuff as fish live in it.

It it in some way a part of an assimilation process?