The Crenicichla Vittata "alligator pike" growout thread

[crenicichla444]

No where at the moment. Wes might be able to get you some large adults otherwise I'd wait for ken from fish farm to import some IF he can get some. These are pretty rare pikes in the states. In the past few years until early this year (they caught a lot ken said) Vittata have been even harder to catch than celidochilus I need a celidochilus btws but decided to get these instead of a pair of celidos but realized I should've just got them all at once

 

[koltsixx]

wooooow, that is awesome pic of an awesome fish. perfect lighting if you ask me

Thanks man, it's much appreciated.

No where at the moment. Wes might be able to get you some large adults otherwise I'd wait for ken from fish farm to import some IF he can get some. These are pretty rare pikes in the states. In the past few years until early this year (they caught a lot ken said) Vittata have been even harder to catch than celidochilus I need a celidochilus btws but decided to get these instead of a pair of celidos but realized I should've just got them all at once

It's funny you cleaned out all the Vittata and I scooped up the Celios which unfortunately I'm down to one. I was surprised because I thought they where one of the less aggressive pikes and they showed no aggression for months but as they put on size they got nasty. I just hope the one I have left is a male because they're definitely more attractive then they're female counterparts IMO. BTW nice progress on your Vittata keep the updates coming. Can I ask have you been monitoring growth rates? I'm just curious because as one of the largest pikes I thought their growth rate would be faster then my Celios but from your pics I'd say the growth rates are about the same.

 

[crenicichla444]

Some say celidos are mild some say they're hyper aggressive like mbuna. I was gonna plan for the worst when I got them and would've thrown them into my current like comm at the time 4 atabapo Is, 2 tapajos Is, 1 tapajos II cobra, 3 tapajos marmorata and 1 inirida I blood tear. Too many targets to take at once I guess lol. In regards to mf being more attractive IMO Id take a female over a male any day. Females get much more red orange color than the males just don't grow quite as big. They both look super nice. Any in tank pics of the last one? Post em up here idc about derails haha as long as it's about pikes I'm game. Maybe if u want to clear some space u could swing him over to me

I have indeed! Been thinking of doing some prazi pro. But not sure the largest one is approaching 4 inches fast but the others are still catching up. They grew really well on cut tilapia and shrimp but I stopped feeding it because cut fillets are time consuming to thaw and cut so I fed fd krill and pellets. Now at my buddies house they're on cut shrimp and fed heavily they've already out grown and out compete the azul pbass they're in with rn for food. Will try and post a feeding video I promise it won't be bad! Lol

 

[koltsixx]

My Celio is def hyper aggressive attacking everything and anything including catfish with ferocity. I haven't taken any in tank pics of the Celio yet just in bag pics. I use bag pics in my photo albums as a way of keeping track when I buy fish and their original size. I would take a pic today but he just ate last night and after a feeding he always goes ghost for a day or two.

How's that comm. working out for you? Is there chasing? Any fin damage? Or do they barely snap at each other? Is there an Alpha in the tank? If I find out I it's possible to more or less peaceably comm several pike species I'd love to grab some an Atabapo I and mix it with my TI and try a group of Zebrina in a comm. My Zebrina is still my fave. She's adaptable not aggressive unless the situation calls for it and I'd love to try and breed her.

Wow, so the Vittata are out pacing Pbass in growth! Very cool. I feed my Celio, TI and Zebrina on pellets exclusively and haven't been impressed with growth. Maybe it's time to start moving toward a more protein rich diet. I was thinking about alternating between pellets and Kens Premium Carnivore Drops. The drops are strictly made of fish meal, shrimp meal and Spirulina which if I remember correctly has a high protein percentage but despite the high protein is unlikely to cause constipation.

Celio in bag pics.

 

[crenicichla444]

That's awesome to hear on the Celido. Sounds like a little beast. How big is he/she?

In regards to that comm I broke it down months ago. There was always a split fin here and there but then the inirida wanted to fight everyone so the atabapos punned the crap out of him every time he tried to stir up crap he got whooped on. He wouldn't stop trying so I had to seperate him. Then the smallest T2 cobra Female pike idk what happened after a big cool water change went berserk and put everyone up in the corner so then I separated the atabapos/marmorata with the tapajos... The atabapos and marmorata got along great I could keep a school of adults peacefully. Think it helped that the atabapos had size on the marmorata. The tapajos however when separated lived in complete harmony too... Then I added some 3-4 inch expendable cichlids for fun (black belt, firemouth, vieja, jack Dempsey) and they got ripped up and eaten by the likes like a pack of piranhas. Then the biggest T1 female went ape s*** on the other tapajos pikes so they had to be separated. Eventually i sold those 2 off and kept the biggest one. The atabapo I and marmorata comm was the best and remained for months till I sold them even when I reduced the numbers they got along fine. In fact a member here that keeps a lot of brown Rays in Michigan has a pair of my atabapos he should post pics up! I think it's definitely possible to comm pikes just gotta be smart about it. I'd do 5 atabapo Is and 2-3 more zebrina those seem to school well. Maybe tapajos I but idk I haven't had the best experience with them comm wise.

In regards to best growth varied diet with more heavy in fillet and froZen shrimps and maybe live food I find gets the best growth and health for fish IMO but pellets are often close enough and much much more convenient. Maybe this week try throwing in some live food for your pikes. I haven't for months but it'll remind you how predatory they are and how good they are at changing colors... I vividly remember the pikes chasing and destroying the cichlids like packs of piranhas since the cichlids were much too big to swallow they tore them up!

In my 300 gallon I'm hoping to try my Tapajos I with another pike not sure which species hopefully someone in the states will come up with jegui or multispinosa at a decent size... Or possibly a male tapajos I lol

 

[koltsixx]

The Celio is tiny still I'd guess approx. 4 inches. Growth has been slow to say the least. That's why I wanted to opt for a higher protein and fat diet. Juvies can handle larger amounts of protein then adults due to all the growing they're doing so I was hoping to bump up the growth rate. I just didn't want to resort to the work of live or frozen again.

In order to try and get around the loss of nutrients from warming/ heating the frozen food I'd stuff the frozen food with pellets which makes the task all the more tedious. The same goes for live. For me to feed live I quarantine the feeders first and once I believe they're okay I'd feed the feeders a large meal of high in protein, fat, and fiber pellets or flakes. My attempt at gut loading to get around nutritional deficiencies in the feeders including the presence of thiaminase which could rob the pike or other pred of some of their B1. A lot of work for me which I was hoping to circumvent by using Kens Carnivore Drops. Spirulina one of the prime ingredients in Kens Carnivore Drops has been called a super food due to it's high concentrations of protein, iron, as well as all eight essential amino acids; potassium; zinc; calcium; vitamins B1, B2, B3, B6 and B-12. Since Kens Drop are dehydrated they should maintain their high concentrations of nutrients even when stored. Hopefully making them superior to most pellets and closer to a varied live diet. At least that's my opinion based on what could best be called an amateur understanding of the knowledge I've gleamed.

I'm sorry to hear, that comm. sounded like a awesome display. So can you tell me in your experience how the different species ranked in aggression when compared to one another? It seems if I'm understanding correctly the Marms and Atabapo I where the least aggressive in both con and interspecific in your experience. The fact that you suggest a comm. of Zebrina and Atabapo I as a possible successful comm. is amping me up. As I said I love my Zebrina and I think the Atabapo I's would make for an amazing display when contrasted with the Zebrina. The only issue is finding a group of the Atabapo I. Hopefully Dan of COTA or someone else will have a group of juvies reasonably priced again. If I wind up going that route my TI and my Vittata may need rehoming. Speaking of TI's my girl has been fairly mild mannered in my tank. A SKKP I got from Happy Breed is the boss and she's totally his sub. She even ignores my group of African Scats and Ingots for the most part just occasionally snapping at them to let them know she's in charge.

You know you're killin me right? Always talking about cool pikes I haven't thought of trying. If you see some Multispinosa please keep me in mind and let me know whose got them as I'd like to try my hand at them as well.

 

[crenicichla444]

Yeah honestly I wouldn't worry about protein content very much unless the pike is very old and big and would have trouble digesting it. Crenicichla are predators but more of them eat more invertebrates than fish (although many are very piscivorous such as celidochilus, missioneira, Xingu 1, etc) so a krill based diet would be good, such as NLS, fd krill etc which I have found to be the best.

Yep I used to stuff my old mmxregmotoro Ray pairs tilapia with NLS which was a a tax. In regards to the whole gut loading process I've done some research back awhile ago and apparently the nutrient transfer from gut loading was only about 15% of food of what you'd actually use on the feeders. I rarely ever use feeders and to be honest I don't quarantine them usually unless I buy more than what I need to feed at one time which is very very rare for me and I rarely if ever buy feeders. I work at a petstore so I pick out the healthiest ones that have been there for over a week or so eliminating the process of quarantining. I'll have to look into kens drops. I've only heard good things about kens food and I might have to try some...

Btws do u heat your tilapia when giving it to your fish? I let the tilapia sit in a bowl/pitcher of water and have it thaw out. Idk if that counts as a significant loss of nutrients but although I have put no research into it I however believe that the filet and the actual fish/shrimp meat that hasn't been processed or altered as much as say pellets is very good for the fish I don't think it's all about the nutrients to be honest there is more too it I think about the actual fishes flesh but idk I'm much more of an amateur than u in regards to fish nutrition but those are some of the thoughts I have on it.

In regards to the species aggression I actually think the marmorata were one of the worse ones. Just having bigger atabapo Is with them really put them in there place. something about these atabapo I they have a defined social hierarchy. The tapajos whoever was the most aggressive would put the rest up in the corners. same with the marms and alot of my other pikes. However people have different experiences. Atabapo I were pretty mean to other fish too especially the large male thread fin heckelli geo but seemed to know when enough was enough when putting a smaller one in his place so no one was hiding. I had 4 ranging from 7-10 inches by the time they got sold. Ate pellets almost primarily NLS. I've seen a YouTube video of a zebrina and atabapo I together peacefully long term in a not very big tank which is heavily planted. Zebrina are one of the more mild pikes from what I've gathered from many sources. Also their relation to Cr. Acutirostris makes sense. Tapajos I and vittata? I'd keep the Tapajos just to see if he'd blend in with the atabapo if u wanna go in with that. Yours seems alright mine is alright too just if another pike comes within sight it's game on! Dude I would've traded you my 4 7-10" atabapo Is for your celidochilus pair! I got them dirt dirt dirt cheap from an importer. Sold them for dirt cheap to my buddies too but a lot more than I got them for so everyone won haha

Haha no ones else does I guess someone has to I guess lol. There's so many pikes I wanna try too. Percna, Xingu III, II, multispinosa, Botox, argentine Hu etc lol

 

[mrrobxc]

. The only issue is finding a group of the Atabapo I. Hopefully Dan of COTA or someone else will have a group of juvies reasonably priced again. If I wind up going that route my TI and my Vittata may need rehoming. Speaking of TI's my girl has been fairly mild mannered in my tank. A SKKP I got from Happy Breed is the boss and she's totally his sub. She even ignores my group of African Scats and Ingots for the most part just occasionally snapping at them to let them know she's in charge.

You know you're killin me right? Always talking about cool pikes I haven't thought of trying. If you see some Multispinosa please keep me in mind and let me know whose got them as I'd like to try my hand at them as well.

Aquscape online has some Atabapo 1's that are 2-3 inches for 15 bucks.

 

[crenicichla444]

Aquscape online has some Atabapo 1's that are 2-3 inches for 15 bucks.

Ahhh yes I've been trying to get pictures... I almost never buy pikes without seeing pics... I have a feeling they are gonna be Johanna or some other common lugubris instead. However if they aren't I might have to just get a bunch

 

[koltsixx]

*Snip*

I've had issues with over feeding high protein pellets causing constipation and loss of swim bladder control when the impacted food presses on it. Even my Zebrina caught a mild case. Luckily with all the fish I've had imported from Taiwan I've become pretty decent at correcting the issue when I get over zealous and feed too much. I'll definitely give the frozen or freeze dried krill a go thanks for the suggestion.

Hmmm, look at that only a 15% transfer, disappointing to say the least. Thanks for the heads up. There's a practice I'll be eliminating from my routine. Kens food is pretty good and the price makes it very reasonable. I prefer using his more expensive pellets(still a lot cheaper then the comp.) since according to the analysis he uses better and more natural ingredients which should aid in digestibility plus they include natural color enhancers such as astaxanthin.

I do heat it by dropping it in warm water, which is supposed to cause the loss of nutrients. Letting it thaw naturally maybe a different story though. So you maybe fine using your method. Natural foods including freeze dried have many things that promote growth besides the high protein and fat content they contain such as Omega 3 fatty acids. Again that's as far as I know based on my understanding. I appreciate your suggestions and the experience you share with me about your feeding habits. There's always more to learn and hopefully we profit from the sharing even if we both are amateurs about food and it's effects on our fish.

Thanks for the info. on your personal experience with aggression. For me personally it was my Tocantins who where the most vicious of my pikes thus far. They had the TI's hugging the surface of a corner of the tank. They where also by far and away the most difficult fish I've had to break off live to frozen never mind pellets. I did accomplish it but it was beyond stressful and took forever. Mind you I've broken Dats(NTT, Indo and NGT's easily), Armatus, Curupira and Scherzeri. The Tocantins made breaking them feel like childs play in comparison. I saw that vid of the AI and Zebrina but I was still hesitant. I know far to well how exceptions to the rule exist so I worried that video was an example of an exception not the norm. I agree from what I've seen and heard Zebrina are definitely one of the more mild ones. Interestingly enough though like your Atabapo I targeted your Heckelli so did my Zebrina target my own Albino Heckelli. She basically ignored her other cichlid tankmates unless they tried dominating her but she killed both my Albino Heckelli, systematically tearing them apart piece by piece. I thought you would've jumped at a chance to snatch up my TI. lol I was considering trying to mix the red pikes guess I'll give it a go and see what happens. Now you want to scoop up my Celio! Pike hoarder. lol

I'm with you on the Botox, Percna and Multispinosa. Though you really perked my interest in the Multispinosa

Aquscape online has some Atabapo 1's that are 2-3 inches for 15 bucks.

Thanks Rob for lookin' out it's much appreciated. Looks like I maybe setting up another tank.

Ahhh yes I've been trying to get pictures... I almost never buy pikes without seeing pics... I have a feeling they are gonna be Johanna or some other common lugubris instead. However if they aren't I might have to just get a bunch

Here's some current pics from Aquascape's site