The End All Red Tail Catfish debate thread!!!! :)

[necrocanis]

Lol those are catfish but not RTC. They are ARTC lol. I couldn't find the ones I saw of SA RTC before. I will say that during dissection and preparation of skeletons of one I owned the meat is very red like salmon. Smelled almost like pork. I was tempted to cook some up but I think my ex wife had poisoned it with bleach so was a no-go. Natives of SA think the dark red meat contains evil spirits or something like that. Some of the tribes refuse to eat it. They are seen at market, but since there is a taboo not as much as other catfish. The RTC x TSN hybrid was actually produced because it has white meat like the TSN and the growth of RTC. They actually package the meat frozen for asia. I found a site trying to get USA buyers for it. lol.

As long as the animal is treated well and not exposed to chemicals that are unsafe for animals intended for human consumption I have no problem with the practice of raising animals to eat, including fish.
Those fillets look delicious.

 

[houie925]

Lol those are catfish but not RTC. They are ARTC lol. I couldn't find the ones I saw of SA RTC before. I will say that during dissection and preparation of skeletons of one I owned the meat is very red like salmon. Smelled almost like pork. I was tempted to cook some up but I think my ex wife had poisoned it with bleach so was a no-go. Natives of SA think the dark red meat contains evil spirits or something like that. Some of the tribes refuse to eat it. They are seen at market, but since there is a taboo not as much as other catfish. The RTC x TSN hybrid was actually produced because it has white meat like the TSN and the growth of RTC. They actually package the meat frozen for asia. I found a site trying to get USA buyers for it. lol.

Hmm, I love salmon but I'm not big on pork. Still I'd love to try some pirarara if I ever get the opportunity. My local Asian market has a pretty good variety of what we would generally see as aquarium species but I've never seen any big cats there other than channels and pangasids.

 

[T1KARMANN]

I wouldn't eat any of my pets
I wouldn't eat my dog or cat

I can't even take fish out when they die my wife has to do it

That said I have only lost one massive ray in 8 years

I'm not going to get on my high horse and moan about people buying to many or very large fish as I have done it with my 350 gal

Its just the crazy size fish like arapima TSN RTC paroon sharks and gator gars to name but a few everyone knows the size when they buy them


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[necrocanis]

Brings to mind another good point. Although some people do eat their fish when they get too large, it is risky. Why? When fish are bred for the ornamental fish trade there is a different set of rules for what types of drugs they are allowed to use versus ones that are bred for human consumption. Stronger hormones, ect. So you might be taking a risk there depending on what you're eating. Probably safe with RTC depending on country of origin. They are bred in Thailand and in SA. In SA they are bred for food fish and we get some of the fingerlings in the aquarium trade as a by product. In thailand I am certain they breed them just for the aquarium trade.

 

[MonsterMinis]

i have never provided hiding spots ie pipe or drift wood for any of my fish

with any big fish water conditions are key

WE DONT KEEP FISH WE KEEP WATER

drift wood rocks and pipes hold all the waste and you dont get to see the fish you keep you just see a head popping out

it also makes fish more aggressive as they defend the spot

See and another point where we differ I guess... I keep fish.. water isn't a living, breathing, thinking being... "keeping water" is as important to me as having healthy fish.. I've rarely lost a fish even the delicate hard to keep alive species.

I have a viewpoint of acclimating it to captivity is priority 1.... getting it offa live foods, or being able to "enjoy seeing it" are all lesser to me vs getting a fish to eat, and show signs of "comfort" in captivity. I try very hard to to come off as "humanitizing" my pets because I honestly don't think they view the world as we humans do ( ie some people dress their dogs ect..) But I've spent entirely to many hours around animals vs humans to not believe they have their own languages, intelligence, ect.. I've found my fish happy and healthiest not just with good water and food but also things in their tanks to encourage thought ect. yes some fish are pretty dumb... but other like big cats and ray, knives.. ime are all intelligent creatures who imo deserve better from us then to be kept in a box of water. I also think a lot of the aggression issues we see in otherwise "predicatable" species relates to environmental and psychological issues more then people want to admit.

Each tank is also very different and each set-ups requirements.. that's not even accounting for the fishes personalities ect... 1/100 things could be wrong but that 1 thing might be what triggers a negative impact on the whole system/set-up. why I'm a firm believer when it comes ot tanks.. if it ain't broke don't fix it.

The best explination/experience I can share in this reguard is I acquired 2 very large tropical gar about 2 monthes ago now... These 2 gar have a laundry list of tank-mates they've killed over years... But in my set-up these two fish are extreamely docile, and in general not aggressive.

Space - this is key to keeping any fish.. we shove big fish in small tanks comparatively. Most fish if you went w/ a 1" rule modified ( ie a 10" fish in a 75 is okay) work out the numbers and you'de be sticking smaller fish in smaller tanks we'de say where to small...

Territory- I look at space and territory very differently.. because some species have small territories so more then one in a large set-up would = their native ranges ect.. fine these types of intermingleing usually work long-term. You also see people ( very common in African cichlid set-ups) put so many into a tank no fish can really claim a territory. I don't agree w/ doing this as while it "works" you end up with the occasional dead fish due to aggression issues (imo that's not working.. the fish are stressed, deaths occur)

Comfort- Do the fish have rest spots? in a bare tank they usually will find the corneres ect... this tells me not only that they are seeking cover.. they are seeking safety. Often times fish get use to this... I have a few fish/species that I know Do not do well. Spiney eels are a wonderful example of a sub-species that really do not tolerate bare tank set-ups... "oh spiney eels just jump"... that is not an answer.. that's an evasion to fixing a very real problem. They require hiding spots or they will seek them out. They don't jump out of tanks because they have "suicidal tendancies" there is something Very wrong in the husbandry practices of their owners... who will keep having spiney eels jump until the understand they need to hide.. or pick different fish.

Food- Back to the gar... predatation of tank-mates w/ gar is a very often founded fear by a lot of their keepers ( I am going to say here that alligator gars are being exclused from these statements as I have never personally owned one, and they are considered by those who have as being the most aggressive species) I personally have NEVER lost a tank-mate to my gar in the past 3-4yrs now of keeping them. I chalk most of this up to my continuing to feed them live fish. These are predatory hunters of fish... its what they do.. and I not only indulge them this but encourage it. I will use minnows on occasion vs goldfish as they are faster and much easily evade the gar then goldfish do. I don't get my jollys ect from watching this, But I do respect the fact a predator needs an outlet.. or they will make/find one. Undertstanding the "nature" of the fish you keep is part and partial to creating a well balanced diet for them not just nutritionally but psychologically.


Even the dumbest animal is going to go abit crazy if stuffed into a "cage" nothing but them in it.. fed the same thing day in and out...no toys ect.. You will see neurotic tendancies eventually... some less problematic then others.

I've had the unfortunate privalage of interacting with large cats, reptiles, horses ect all smart predatory animals and have a hard time not seeing intelligence in some of my fishes eyes... and seen some of the behaviors from lack of "enrichment" in their lives.. I don't want to do that to my fish either. particularly one as large as a RTC that wants to interact with its owner. Both my big cats now want my attention anytime they see me.. yes its mainly food. but one of the big tropical actually enjoys being touched and will swim and brush against my hand before/during/after feedings or just anytime it sees me. Big fish actually aren't hard to train... I look forward to working with mine more in the future.... but we still imo need to respect them as the predetors they are and give them an outlet to be what they are.

keeping a single tetra will often result In its death simply because its a schooling fish... I see no real reason not to think if we don't meet our larger fishes needs besides clean water, good food, space to swim. That they wouldn't also be "inadequetly" tended. Just because it may not school doesn't mean we're giving them everything they need.

Most my fish started with heads popping out.. but I have yet to own a spiney that wouldn't hand-feed. my TSN has recently started begging for food after how many monthes? I have found the more intelligent the fish the longer its taken to "buddy up" with them.

 

[MonsterMinis]

Brings to mind another good point. Although some people do eat their fish when they get too large, it is risky. Why? When fish are bred for the ornamental fish trade there is a different set of rules for what types of drugs they are allowed to use versus ones that are bred for human consumption. Stronger hormones, ect. So you might be taking a risk there depending on what you're eating. Probably safe with RTC depending on country of origin. They are bred in Thailand and in SA. In SA they are bred for food fish and we get some of the fingerlings in the aquarium trade as a by product. In thailand I am certain they breed them just for the aquarium trade.

If you raise it to eat that's one thing.. if you raise it as a pet... it's just wrong imo... some people eat horsemeat... I personally never could because of my emotional attachments... imo there is a line where you have to cut your emotions out of it.... but I think its gross to "eat a pet" but if you don't raise it as a pet if its legal i'm cool with it...

and your point about the meds used in ornimentals vs food also just encourages me to never eat a "pet fish" even if I was raising it for food.

We're also a organic eating family as a general rule ( I'm not crazy about it but we eat as much Organic, and GMO free as we can.) So I do a lot of research on what I feed my family... amusingly enough this includes our fish.

something I raised , gave a name too, and otherwise treated as family... then slaughter is abit to sociopathic for my tastes. has nothing to do w/ the "species" but everything to do with your internal ethics in such things. as a woman too maternal instincts play a very big part in what I feel is right and wrong. But also as a meat-eater I have to be able to kill my own food to live with eating it, it bothers me when people will eat lbs of beef but say "omg the poor cows, I could never slaughter one!" well imo then you probably shouldn't be eating it...

 

[necrocanis]

If you raise it to eat that's one thing.. if you raise it as a pet... it's just wrong imo... some people eat horsemeat... I personally never could because of my emotional attachments... imo there is a line where you have to cut your emotions out of it.... but I think its gross to "eat a pet" but if you don't raise it as a pet if its legal i'm cool with it...

and your point about the meds used in ornimentals vs food also just encourages me to never eat a "pet fish" even if I was raising it for food.

We're also a organic eating family as a general rule ( I'm not crazy about it but we eat as much Organic, and GMO free as we can.) So I do a lot of research on what I feed my family... amusingly enough this includes our fish.

something I raised , gave a name too, and otherwise treated as family... then slaughter is abit to sociopathic for my tastes. has nothing to do w/ the "species" but everything to do with your internal ethics in such things. as a woman too maternal instincts play a very big part in what I feel is right and wrong. But also as a meat-eater I have to be able to kill my own food to live with eating it, it bothers me when people will eat lbs of beef but say "omg the poor cows, I could never slaughter one!" well imo then you probably shouldn't be eating it...

All good points here. Others that do raise them and eat them when too large dont seem very attached to the fish. They see it in the old light of being just a fish. I dont agree or disagree with either. I prepare and study the skeletons and share notes with an icthyologist that specializes in catfish. I find that fish i did not raise mysekf are easier to work with. Catfish that i did raise myself could take months or years before i will work on it and cant help but be emotional when starting the project. I was so upset over the loss of all my fish that my exwife killed that it took me 2 years before i would even do a fish skeleton at all. Now i see it as honoring them and potentially furthering our understanding of each species. I can def see where you are coming from. Although i wont eat one of my fish unless i had no other option i am not against eating other individuals of the same species.


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[T1KARMANN]

Dam I don't understand you guys

On one hand you say its best to provide hiding places and do things natural

On the other hand you say its great to interact with them what's natural about that what will you do shake the PVC pipe they are hiding in to get them to come out and play

As for not keeping water you don't do tests on the fish to make sure they are doing well but you test water

Add up all the time spent feeding and interacting as you say with the time spent clean filters and doing water changes what takes the most time in this hobby taking care of the fish or taking care of the water
That's what you are doing after all taking care of the water if you miss a few water changes the water gets sick then the fish get sick
Without good water you have no fish simple

I see someone said they had some very large gars but had never kept a gator gar well they couldn't have been that big then 24" 30 max that's not big

We all do our things our tanks our own ways what works for some may not work for others
What will not work is a 6x2 for a RTC

We can keep giving out that advice until we are blue in the face but people will still buy them

What some people class as a massive tank 100g it to small for a lot of fish

All I can pass on is what has worked for me if people want to use that advice then great if not I won't lose any sleep over it

Like what was said if its not broke don't fix it


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[bobVillanueva]

Dam I don't understand you guys

On one hand you say its best to provide hiding places and do things natural

On the other hand you say its great to interact with them what's natural about that what will you do shake the PVC pipe they are hiding in to get them to come out and play

As for not keeping water you don't do tests on the fish to make sure they are doing well but you test water

Add up all the time spent feeding and interacting as you say with the time spent clean filters and doing water changes what takes the most time in this hobby taking care of the fish or taking care of the water
That's what you are doing after all taking care of the water if you miss a few water changes the water gets sick then the fish get sick
Without good water you have no fish simple

I see someone said they had some very large gars but had never kept a gator gar well they couldn't have been that big then 24" 30 max that's not big

We all do our things our tanks our own ways what works for some may not work for others
What will not work is a 6x2 for a RTC

We can keep giving out that advice until we are blue in the face but people will still buy them

What some people class as a massive tank 100g it to small for a lot of fish

All I can pass on is what has worked for me if people want to use that advice then great if not I won't lose any sleep over it

Like what was said if its not broke don't fix it


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The term is "broken". Anyway, keeping the water pristine is for the fish. Hence, keeping water is a way to keep the fish not the other way around. Don't dwell on it too much, its just right. The phrasing just gave ambiguity, thats all.

I know people will still buy them but the point of our advice is not to discourage them, its to educate them. So they'd have an idea as to what to do. Id take 1 out of 1000 who actually builds enough space and give good water and care than none anytime.


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[MonsterMinis]

Sometimes even I don't understand me =) ...

And to clear up one point.. no I wouldn't advise shaking a fish out of it's hiding spot... But if you give them the opportunity to hide.. feed them and otherwise "work to gain their trust" as one would do with other pets.. a lot of the shy/reclusive species that most people say "omg don't get those they just hide!" it's bs.. they hide all day and night because they are stressed and uncomfortable. No fish hides all day and night... if they did they wouldn't be able to eat. ( and by that being said i'm sure there will be some species that is exactly like that because I said there wasn't one, lol)

My point being.. when fish are given the "choice" you can change their minds and what originally was a pretty dull pet has become something spectacular. when a fish has no place to go/hide its much harder to "bring them out"

And for the interactions ect not being "natural" we are still keeping these animals in captivity so their normal social structures are being messed with wether we realize it or not. I don't "force" my pets to interact with me, but I do encourage it.

If my cats didn't trust me to clip their nails every week they would need to be sedated or restrained and stressed out opposed to having made this routine and normal full of attention and treats.

I view my large fish in particular like zoo's do.. when you are dealing with such large creatures having pre-trained them to do certain behaviors makes working with them far less stressful on both sides. I'm sure you know how much fun it is to move large fish... what if you had trained your cat to swim into a tote and be "captured"? or your rays ect? ... It's not "natural" for them but it gives their brains something to figure out... where in the wild they would be trying to figure out how to get x-y-z out from under a stump or how to maneuver threw some weeds ect...

Owning a large animal is "more" then just providing adequate space for it.

And if I could get my fish tested routinely, see a vet like my horse and cats do.. I absolutely would. But we get water tests, and I'm not saying they aren't important, because they very much are clean/ideal water perameters are the backbone of a solid husbandry plan. and often when things go awry, the first questions to ask.

And yes my gar are between 16"- 24"+ all 8 of them.. my cats are now packing in the 18"+ range.... then my 2 lil' retics are 9"+ and 10"+ since I haven't had a chance to measure everyone lately. The trops are the newest to my group so I imagine at their size/age they will be the smallest fish besides the rays in the next year or 2. depending how fast my floridas grow.

These are also the biggest fish I've personally owned now, so I'm still learning a lot. working with them, and owning them has been very different in some ways. But a lot of my background includes working w/ other arge intelligent animals so I have learned ALOT from those experiances that I have applied some more then others w/ so far imo Great results. I am pretty proud to say that I have raised all but 3 of my fish from fry/juvies.. to their sizes mirroring wild age/averages Most my fish are 2yrs+ now so still sub-adults... But hopefully one day I will be sitting in my rocking chair w/ my husband telling the grandkids to go feed the fish, and if by some dumb luck have one interested in them enough to inherite them when we pass away.