The End All Red Tail Catfish debate thread!!!! :)

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Education is the key, cats (RTC now in the case) can't do good turns, PVC can provide as good temporary hiding spot(s), learning from mistakes or from forums, we should help and not just flame people who needs help and info... (well I could crisply burn those irresponsible trolls who really are messing things up intentionally), poor fish keeping should be inclined, pond vs aquarium.


I just listed all the things I've read so far, highlighted and if there will be additional to be taken notice of, you (reader) should do your readings seriously. I would like to propose a thought, serious hobbyist ofcourse would think what is best for their fish (in general), cat keepers should be aware that most of the cats would grow big and would outgrow a tank, which I suppose the favorite pick of those people who would like to have a cat will be a 75g. That's where we will go deeper and the have the fundamentals of fishkeeping, the LFS.

LFS, on the other hand would be a place where most of our fish came from, may it be rare or not, though some of us may buy from other sources such as internet vendors, WC/CB makes no difference when they're marketed to people who doesn't know how to keep that fish, which in case now for the topic RTC. Would it be nice first before someone setup a LFS, that set of people should have a mandatory basic knowledge of fishkeeping, husbandry and the needs of the fish they're selling? In that wonderful idealistic view, I would say incident such as RTC are not likely to be found in our local creek, river, or lake, or even people would be surprised on what kind of trouble they're into without being prepared... one of the things I observed, most of the first fish we do had and wanted as a pet was the dither fish for cycling the tank.

I know from my POV what I'm saying is another different topic which can be started as a thread. But it all comes down to this, we cannot avoid the fact that there are people who will just get themselves a catfish that would be bigger than a regular house cat. A major change can be seen if only LFS would have some extra brains and not just another business to get $$$$ and put false or insufficient info for the poor clueless people about the hobby.
 
i have never provided hiding spots ie pipe or drift wood for any of my fish

with any big fish water conditions are key

WE DONT KEEP FISH WE KEEP WATER

drift wood rocks and pipes hold all the waste and you dont get to see the fish you keep you just see a head popping out

it also makes fish more aggressive as they defend the spot
 
i have never provided hiding spots ie pipe or drift wood for any of my fish

with any big fish water conditions are key

WE DONT KEEP FISH WE KEEP WATER

drift wood rocks and pipes hold all the waste and you dont get to see the fish you keep you just see a head popping out

it also makes fish more aggressive as they defend the spot

I'm still new to the hobby .... but based on what I've read and other animal care ... I have to ask this. You say no decor as it collects waste and debris (makes complete sense ... can't argue) .. but what I wonder is when you refer it to aggression and territory.
Now if a creature (fish in general in this case) makes a home in the wild, defending its territory to others ... shouldn't we allow that same creature the same opportunity to do is in the environment we've created for it. Quality of life isn't just about the size of the enclosure but actually its overall surroundings ... this could really be applied to anything that a person keeps as a pet (I get alot of grief from my parents due to the fact I keep an 80lbs dog in the city .... even though my dog still has a good quality of life and a decent sized yard ... but in their minds its not a farm). The biggest challenge would be keeping tanks understocked for better quality of life.

But on the topic of ponds, being a farmboy/outdoorsman ... I gotta wonder if a pond would be better, after all when these fish are in the wild they see people/creatures approach from above all the time .... they just have surface coverage or deeper pools to hide.

Still waiting to hear more on the debate of pond vs. tank .... was hoping for some more insight.
 
Now if a creature (fish in general in this case) makes a home in the wild, defending its territory to others ... shouldn't we allow that same creature the same opportunity to do is in the environment we've created for it.

You don't want to promote fish aggression. Not unless you do have an exceptionally aggressive one. Most of the times (RTC aside) Semi aggressive fish are within a commnity tank of another semi aggressive fish, and as well as putting a large flowerhorn, a RTC, Jardini, or let's say typical cichilids, JD to Red devils to snakeheads... if you mix em and provide to agitate the fish whereas they are in like that, it's a deathmatch, and that would defeat the purpose of quality of life towards other fish, or let's just say fishkeeping, or as T1KARMANN water keeping. (Guess I'm keeping the water husbandry very well now, kiddin :naughty:) . I won't debate regarding this further more cause it's about RTC and I would like to have this thread smooth as possible, but I just did point out the thing with aggression. All of those territory claiming fish is surely aggressive, and "some" of the guys in the hobby do want as possible to keep a community of predator.
 
I'm still new to the hobby .... but based on what I've read and other animal care ... I have to ask this. You say no decor as it collects waste and debris (makes complete sense ... can't argue) .. but what I wonder is when you refer it to aggression and territory.
Now if a creature (fish in general in this case) makes a home in the wild, defending its territory to others ... shouldn't we allow that same creature the same opportunity to do is in the environment we've created for it. Quality of life isn't just about the size of the enclosure but actually its overall surroundings ... this could really be applied to anything that a person keeps as a pet (I get alot of grief from my parents due to the fact I keep an 80lbs dog in the city .... even though my dog still has a good quality of life and a decent sized yard ... but in their minds its not a farm). The biggest challenge would be keeping tanks understocked for better quality of life.



Still waiting to hear more on the debate of pond vs. tank .... was hoping for some more insight.

To allow a dog all its natural behaviors one would need some serious acreage, a group of dogs, and live prey on the property for them to hunt. It appears you have none of that but state that your dog has a good quality of life. You then question whether one is providing a good quality of life for a fish if said fish isn't allowed to engage in a natural behavior to establish and fight for territory. Not judging your keeping of a dog, I have dogs too and don't live on a farm, but I don't understand why a fish's quality of life would suffer from simply not engaging in a certain natural behavior but a dog's wouldn't.

How do you judge your dog's quality of life?

I judge my fishes', and other pets', quality of life by their overall health as well as behavior and appearance that indicate a general lack of stress

And regarding pond vs aquarium there are pros and cons for each. One should decide what features are most important to them as fishkeepers and choose accordingly.

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using MonsterAquariaNetwork App
 
I'm still new to the hobby .... but based on what I've read and other animal care ... I have to ask this. You say no decor as it collects waste and debris (makes complete sense ... can't argue) .. but what I wonder is when you refer it to aggression and territory.
Now if a creature (fish in general in this case) makes a home in the wild, defending its territory to others ... shouldn't we allow that same creature the same opportunity to do is in the environment we've created for it. Quality of life isn't just about the size of the enclosure but actually its overall surroundings ... this could really be applied to anything that a person keeps as a pet (I get alot of grief from my parents due to the fact I keep an 80lbs dog in the city .... even though my dog still has a good quality of life and a decent sized yard ... but in their minds its not a farm). The biggest challenge would be keeping tanks understocked for better quality of life.



Still waiting to hear more on the debate of pond vs. tank .... was hoping for some more insight.


in the wild yes fine but in a tank other fish dont have the chance to stay well away from that fish cave pipe

if you remove the pipe cave everything gets to see everything all the time so less aggression

when i used to keep an aro with drift wood and small dat/tigers the tigers used to hide in the drift wood and everytime the tigers popped the head out to get food the aro would attack i removed drift wood the aro can see them all the time and pays no interest in them

how would you expect me to provide a 24"+ tiger/dat that has a body over 12" tall with cover

the wild is a different case you cant base things that happen in the wild and use them in a tank
the hard part about a mixed comm tank is making them all live together in the wild if they dont like something they swim 10 miles up the river they cant do that in a tank

thats my opinion and it have worked very well for me so i wont be changing anything if the fish was stressed i dont think they would have lived as long as they have nearly all of them are over 6 years old some 8 and still going strong
 
You don't want to promote fish aggression. Not unless you do have an exceptionally aggressive one. Most of the times (RTC aside) Semi aggressive fish are within a commnity tank of another semi aggressive fish, and as well as putting a large flowerhorn, a RTC, Jardini, or let's say typical cichilids, JD to Red devils to snakeheads... if you mix em and provide to agitate the fish whereas they are in like that, it's a deathmatch, and that would defeat the purpose of quality of life towards other fish, or let's just say fishkeeping, or as T1KARMANN water keeping. (Guess I'm keeping the water husbandry very well now, kiddin :naughty:) . I won't debate regarding this further more cause it's about RTC and I would like to have this thread smooth as possible, but I just did point out the thing with aggression. All of those territory claiming fish is surely aggressive, and "some" of the guys in the hobby do want as possible to keep a community of predator.

To allow a dog all its natural behaviors one would need some serious acreage, a group of dogs, and live prey on the property for them to hunt. It appears you have none of that but state that your dog has a good quality of life. You then question whether one is providing a good quality of life for a fish if said fish isn't allowed to engage in a natural behavior to establish and fight for territory. Not judging your keeping of a dog, I have dogs too and don't live on a farm, but I don't understand why a fish's quality of life would suffer from simply not engaging in a certain natural behavior but a dog's wouldn't.

How do you judge your dog's quality of life?

I judge my fishes', and other pets', quality of life by their overall health as well as behavior and appearance that indicate a general lack of stress

And regarding pond vs aquarium there are pros and cons for each. One should decide what features are most important to them as fishkeepers and choose accordingly.

Sent from my Huawei-U8665 using MonsterAquariaNetwork App

in the wild yes fine but in a tank other fish dont have the chance to stay well away from that fish cave pipe

if you remove the pipe cave everything gets to see everything all the time so less aggression

when i used to keep an aro with drift wood and small dat/tigers the tigers used to hide in the drift wood and everytime the tigers popped the head out to get food the aro would attack i removed drift wood the aro can see them all the time and pays no interest in them

how would you expect me to provide a 24"+ tiger/dat that has a body over 12" tall with cover

the wild is a different case you cant base things that happen in the wild and use them in a tank
the hard part about a mixed comm tank is making them all live together in the wild if they dont like something they swim 10 miles up the river they cant do that in a tank

thats my opinion and it have worked very well for me so i wont be changing anything if the fish was stressed i dont think they would have lived as long as they have nearly all of them are over 6 years old some 8 and still going strong

Thanks for the responses ... as I said, I'm still new. I that was quite enlightening as well as opened more avenues for learning for me.
I was questioned about quality of life concerning my dog .. and like you I base it on the same things health, temperment, lack of stress, appearance etc... unfortunately when any kind of enclosure is made, quality of life is altered in some way. No way around that. My dog wouldn't survive on a farm, she's already blind in one eye and losing her eye sight in the other (she's 5 yrs old - was a rescue). But I do agree the farm would be the ideal spot for a large dog ... no fences, but I (like many others) take extra measures to ensure a good quality life. Walks, exercise, play time and interaction, good diet and as many trips to the farm as possible. As I'm trying to learn with my fishkeeping ... they're still living creatures. Have a long ways to go .... but already have begun my journey.

Now as for the issue on decor ... T1KARMANN, thanks for replying (I was hoping you would). Once again great explanation, makes perfect sense. Never thought how the removal of decor could diffuse aggression (as you had explained with your Arro and Dat). You see I had to question this, on the basis that most things I've read so far, usually has a part about decor ... providing places to home/hide/spawn/etc.... So seeing how you've obviously have had success in the hobby and speak highly against the use of decor. That prompted my question.

And necrocanis .... if this has taken us off topic of what you intended ... I apologize
 
You say if any fish is kept in a tank its quality of life is affected

This maybe true for wild caught fish but how do you judge quality of life on a captive bred fish which ALL my rays are

They have been born in my 350g then moved to the 1000 gal
They don't know any different so there quality of life isn't affected in any way

This can be said for any captive bred fish that has been born in a tank as long as the tank is of good size for the fish to move freely then I can't see the problem

My rays have also been breeding for years so they must be happy right

You can't compare a dog to a fish or even birds

We have a duty as a owner to provide the best conditions we can for any animal we keep if we can't we shouldn't buy them in the first place

RTC TSN arapima alligator gars are a big problem to name but a few


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No problem at all. :) This thread is for sharing and learning. If there is anything we can share to learn more about how to successfully house a rtc for 30+ years then I am all for it even if it seems off topic you never know what kind of ideas or new thoughts you may inspire. This hobby for me at least is about enjoying very large fish as pets, as well as learning everything I possibly can about the group of fish I love the most. Catfish if you hadn't guessed lol. I agree that limited or even eliminated decore is best for large fish in general when kept in aquariums. Less for large catfish to eat, get impaled on, cut one, ect. This goes double for RTC. HOwever I do think that if you are that .01% that is able to set up a 10k tank you should try to make the environment as natural as possible. I mean why build a 10k tank if you weren't trying to house the fish as best as you possibly could. This size tank would allow for enough room for fish to escape each other and have independent territories so long as you don't over stock. For me over stocking is not just about a 1" rule or stuffing in as many fish as your filtration can handle. It also means making sure the fish have their own space as well. I may be removing the driftwood from my tanks very soon as I can tell that it is causing some issues between my sperata and suncats right now. Shouldn't be an issue once the sperata is in the 400 gal pond, but for right now it might be best.


Thanks for the responses ... as I said, I'm still new. I that was quite enlightening as well as opened more avenues for learning for me.
I was questioned about quality of life concerning my dog .. and like you I base it on the same things health, temperment, lack of stress, appearance etc... unfortunately when any kind of enclosure is made, quality of life is altered in some way. No way around that. My dog wouldn't survive on a farm, she's already blind in one eye and losing her eye sight in the other (she's 5 yrs old - was a rescue). But I do agree the farm would be the ideal spot for a large dog ... no fences, but I (like many others) take extra measures to ensure a good quality life. Walks, exercise, play time and interaction, good diet and as many trips to the farm as possible. As I'm trying to learn with my fishkeeping ... they're still living creatures. Have a long ways to go .... but already have begun my journey.

Now as for the issue on decor ... T1KARMANN, thanks for replying (I was hoping you would). Once again great explanation, makes perfect sense. Never thought how the removal of decor could diffuse aggression (as you had explained with your Arro and Dat). You see I had to question this, on the basis that most things I've read so far, usually has a part about decor ... providing places to home/hide/spawn/etc.... So seeing how you've obviously have had success in the hobby and speak highly against the use of decor. That prompted my question.

And necrocanis .... if this has taken us off topic of what you intended ... I apologize
 
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