The Hypocrite thread mbu

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
That was sarcasm I assume :D

@ Just Toby's quote; the problem is that once you start comparing to the wild, we're all guilty of compromising our fish if they can't display all natural behaviours. For example, take Arapaimag's arapaimas in the 52K tank...if they never have the chance to breed, are they being kept anymore "comfortably" than a pair of breeding convicts in a 20 gal? Comfort is all in the eye of the beholder
 
Large amounts of vulgar and insulting comments when he couldn't handle criticism of his argument. R.D. apparently fled the thread in horror, let's try to limit the exodus and move on shall we?
 
Yep, can't look away for a second!
 
LOL, I mean honestly...no reason for a reaction like that based on different opinions on a fish forum. If it was directed at you, I am sorry Jen.
 
LOL, I've had worse...
 
I don't think the 1000 gal is very far off. There has been a pretty good discussion for and against on both sides and there are a lot of unknowns that need to be addressed before anything conclusive is reached.

Tank footprint:
an 8 x 4 x 4 tank (length = 4x the fish, width and height = 2x the length) is not unreasonable to assume and that still gives us 900 gals. You can play with the numbers and even get it down to 600 gals + a sump but with the sump you're still in the ballpark (because it is still total water volume).

Bioload:
Comparing a Fahaka and an Mbu is not really going to work simply because they have different growth rates thus equates to a different metabolism and thus the bioload will be different for both fish at any given time. The ONLY true way to determine the bioload of a fish is by testing. You do the test and take your Nitrate reading just before a 50% water change and do the same thing exactly 1 week later. This will determine if your filtration is up to par and or have enough water volume. Obviously, this is ongoing as the fish continues to grow.

The YMMV component:
2 fish of the same species will experience different growth rates and different behaviors. What was good for one may not hold true for another. This is also true in genetically identical animals as proven in recent years. To say that an "averaged sized MBU is 24 inches" is also not unreasonable. Some will grow larger and some will not (given identical conditions).

Some things mentioned in the discussion that should be discarded or re-thought:
*a 500 gal with heavy filtration can be better kept than a 1000 gal with lesser filtration. -Obviously. Re compare the 2 with equal levels of filtration and equal 50% water changes with the same bioload and I'm sure you will see that the larger tank contains less pollutants.
*Trout growing in a pipe with continuous fresh water flow does not stunt the fish. - Obviously. This is because source pollution and hormones are continuously flushed out of the system. That is not so with the average tank. The only time these contaminants are removed from the system is with a water change. Attempt the same in a system where water is flushed weekly and you'll have some rotting fish on your hands.

So in essence we have a situation where some variables are up to the keeper:
More frequent water changes may allow for a smaller tank, but limits swimming space. The amount of swimming space needed is subjective to the age of the puffer and its individual temperament. For those who do weekly changes, yes, a larger thank is needed. Most of the info read on the 1000 gal tank size, I believe is geared towards those who are doing weekly water changes (which is the benchmark for determining bioload).
 
I am sure if you kept an online log it would be valuable to other members:
Nitrate levels @ 50% water changes
Size of the puffer (both length and girth), feeding habits
and aprox age also.
 
Some things mentioned in the discussion that should be discarded or re-thought:
*a 500 gal with heavy filtration can be better kept than a 1000 gal with lesser filtration. -Obviously. Re compare the 2 with equal levels of filtration and equal 50% water changes with the same bioload and I'm sure you will see that the larger tank contains less pollutants.

If that was referring to one of my comments, I believe that you missed my point, that being one doesn't require a 1,000 gallon system in order to keep pollutants to a minimum, and more importantly those pollutants can be controlled much more effectively via a continuous daily water change, than one large once a week water change. In many cases it would also be much less stressful on the fish, as all parameters remain constant from one week to the next.

Beyond the size of the tank, all other variables are up to the keeper, and this is the part of the argument that the 1,000 gallon camp are apparently failing to grasp.

Most of the info read on the 1000 gal tank size, I believe is geared towards those who are doing weekly water changes (which is the benchmark for determining bioload).

Not according to RTR, who is the originator of the min 1,000 gallons per adult mbu puffer. According to RTR, in his 180 gallon tank he performed 2 or 3 50 gallon partials per week (alternating weeks) So unless I misunderstood, every other week he didn't perform any water changes.


The argument about limiting swimming space could be said about any species, but with mbu it seems to be taken to an extreme by certain individuals. IMO a 600 gallon tank is very doable, and with an added sump you can add an extra 100+ gallons to the equation. A friend of mine in town has a 180 gallon sump on his 600 gallon tank. Not that one necessarily needs to add a massive sump in order to gain any more water volume, but a large sump certainly makes for some serious filtration.

IMO with mbu there is no need to have 2x the height, or 2x the length of the fish. Most 500-600 gallon tanks would provide more than adequate space for an adult mbu. Would a 1,000 gallon tank be nicer, sure, but so would a 5,000 gallon tank.

But this discussion is about minimum values, and using a 1,000 gallons as the minimum value for an adult mbu would equate to an adult Asian arowana requiring a 1,000+ gallons, and an A. labiatus a 240 gallon.

As previously stated, I think that in this hobby there's a fine line between being compassionate, and being fanatical.







 
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