In regard to entire genus bands , another option could be to import/sell fish over 5" in length to minimize the misidentification of species. I do agree protection of the environment, should take first priority though.
This has been bugging me for a while.
- Thread starter wild bill
- Start date
RD I have never been in the back of said store but I know how bad mice smell. This smell is very hard to disguise or remove and I respect your opinion on this subject. How ever I have always enjoyed Wayne's store for his collection of fish. This said I also respect our Hagen reps thoughts and what he has seen.
On the FRT suject why is nothing being done about all of them for sale on KIJIJI. The fish and wild life watch these sights surely they would catch these unsuspecting trafficers. The hard work is done these people have even in some cases given addresses and phone numbers.
I know of one wizzard in the Red Deer office with all his knowledge as a fish biologist that could crack this whole case himself.
We all know how hard it is to stop trafficing but to ban all snake heads is over board and will not stop the problem. What affects alot of hobbist in this bill will be the need to have a licence to sell their fry. How ever this is a topic better served on the Alberta fish forums. Sadly crooked people will always ruin it for the honest ones.
On the FRT suject why is nothing being done about all of them for sale on KIJIJI. The fish and wild life watch these sights surely they would catch these unsuspecting trafficers. The hard work is done these people have even in some cases given addresses and phone numbers.
I know of one wizzard in the Red Deer office with all his knowledge as a fish biologist that could crack this whole case himself.
We all know how hard it is to stop trafficing but to ban all snake heads is over board and will not stop the problem. What affects alot of hobbist in this bill will be the need to have a licence to sell their fry. How ever this is a topic better served on the Alberta fish forums. Sadly crooked people will always ruin it for the honest ones.
Thank you for this. It's good to read both pro and con PETA.
Extremism and ignorance abound everywhere, in every sphere of our lives. There is no good thing that cannot be spoiled.
Using animals to feed, cloth, service, and educate us and also to enrich our lives is good but can slide to production of toxic foods, abuse, and eco-disasters.
Protecting animals and nature from abuse can slide the other way to abusing the humans.
We'll continue rocking the boat until we capsize.
People appear inclined to slide into black-and-white thinking because it is simple and "clear cut", it does not require laborious self-education, it requires only a tiny bit of "labor-intensive" reasoning, and, thus, we fail to recognize this is a tight-rope balancing act. Surely we will fall to the left and right but we need to keep trying because we cannot afford to reap the fruit of our laziness and egocentrism. We won't like the taste.
This isn't a PETA thread. This topic has nothing to do with PETA.
It's about a LFS that had its business license pulled due to numerous complaints, and numerous violations. The rest has yet to be dealt with by the courts, and from what I have heard the store has been sold.
Bill, it wasn't mice that I was smelling. Dirty reptile enclosures have a distinct odor. And it wasn't a single incident. I have owned both mice, and reptiles and I know what a clean enclosure smells like, and one that is filthy dirty.
I have no idea what happens to reptiles sold on local online ads, perhaps they are being investigated? I just checked, I don't see any FRT's listed for sale in AB. But you are referring to turtles already landed, some for many years, not a licensed business in Canada importing animals from an illegal black market. You seem to want to ignore the obvious, as though because someone owns a fish store they should get a free pass. It doesn't work that way, if anything they should be held to a higher standard. Perhaps the Hagen rep is right, Wayne was a target for the HS, but he didn't get that target on his back years ago by being an innocent bystander. He seems to have brought this on himself.I don't see the HS hanging outside of Pisces, Golds, or any of the other numerous fish/reptile/pet stores in the city. Why do you reckon that is? Wayne is just unlucky?
And while it's easy to be a critic of everything that our Govt does to protect our natural resources, most people have no clue how much this protection costs us.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/how-government-combats-invasive-species
An interesting read ......
http://www.ceaa.gc.ca/050/documents_staticpost/59540/82080/Appendix_E_-_Part_04.pdf
According to that paper AB is pretty lucky, we only spend 1-2 billion dollars a year dealing with invasive species - the USA spends at least 137 BILLION a year.
And with snakeheads, there is more than just risk of them surviving the winter, they also carry various disease & pathogens, some we don't even know about, which may also possibly be a concern to native species, I don't know, do you?
http://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-External/displaynoticecontent.do?noticeId=MjI0Nzg=&statusId=NTI0Nzg=
Snakeheads carry a number of parasites and diseases, including epizootic ulcerative syndrome (EUS).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epizootic_ulcerative_syndrome
Probably not something our native species would do well with. So, how many more tax dollars do you want to provide to our Govt, in order to keep Snakeheads in the aquatic hobby in our Province?
It's about a LFS that had its business license pulled due to numerous complaints, and numerous violations. The rest has yet to be dealt with by the courts, and from what I have heard the store has been sold.
Bill, it wasn't mice that I was smelling. Dirty reptile enclosures have a distinct odor. And it wasn't a single incident. I have owned both mice, and reptiles and I know what a clean enclosure smells like, and one that is filthy dirty.
I have no idea what happens to reptiles sold on local online ads, perhaps they are being investigated? I just checked, I don't see any FRT's listed for sale in AB. But you are referring to turtles already landed, some for many years, not a licensed business in Canada importing animals from an illegal black market. You seem to want to ignore the obvious, as though because someone owns a fish store they should get a free pass. It doesn't work that way, if anything they should be held to a higher standard. Perhaps the Hagen rep is right, Wayne was a target for the HS, but he didn't get that target on his back years ago by being an innocent bystander. He seems to have brought this on himself.I don't see the HS hanging outside of Pisces, Golds, or any of the other numerous fish/reptile/pet stores in the city. Why do you reckon that is? Wayne is just unlucky?
And while it's easy to be a critic of everything that our Govt does to protect our natural resources, most people have no clue how much this protection costs us.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/how-government-combats-invasive-species
- every year, invasive plants cost the agriculture and forest industries in Canada about $7.3 billion
- in Ontario, impacts from zebra mussels cost $75-91 million per year
An interesting read ......
http://www.ceaa.gc.ca/050/documents_staticpost/59540/82080/Appendix_E_-_Part_04.pdf
According to that paper AB is pretty lucky, we only spend 1-2 billion dollars a year dealing with invasive species - the USA spends at least 137 BILLION a year.
And with snakeheads, there is more than just risk of them surviving the winter, they also carry various disease & pathogens, some we don't even know about, which may also possibly be a concern to native species, I don't know, do you?
http://www.ebr.gov.on.ca/ERS-WEB-External/displaynoticecontent.do?noticeId=MjI0Nzg=&statusId=NTI0Nzg=
Snakeheads carry a number of parasites and diseases, including epizootic ulcerative syndrome (EUS).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epizootic_ulcerative_syndrome
Probably not something our native species would do well with. So, how many more tax dollars do you want to provide to our Govt, in order to keep Snakeheads in the aquatic hobby in our Province?
More reading material for you, Bill.
http://albertaventure.com/2015/09/wtf-the-origins-of-albertas-invasive-species/
Please note the portion about the Alberta government “Don’t Let it Loose” campaign, encouraging owners to properly dispose of their unwanted pet fish. Again, we have no one but ourselves to blame for all of this. And it looks like we made a first, Alberta is currently the only jurisdiction in North America with an invasive outbreak of Prussian carp.
http://albertaventure.com/2015/09/wtf-the-origins-of-albertas-invasive-species/
Please note the portion about the Alberta government “Don’t Let it Loose” campaign, encouraging owners to properly dispose of their unwanted pet fish. Again, we have no one but ourselves to blame for all of this. And it looks like we made a first, Alberta is currently the only jurisdiction in North America with an invasive outbreak of Prussian carp.
Hello; The subject of the thread seems broader to me than the example of the specific fish shop used. The issue of a specific fish shop not meeting your and the local authorities care standards is an example of the question of how the power to close a shop came about. To me, that power does involve the tactics of groups such a PETA and others. I was impressed by the kill rate of the animals under PETA's care; over 90% I believe. I see, from time to time, that tear jerker ad with the song by Sara M. I had, in the past, thought they used the money to actually save animals. If the links I posted are correct, they appear to only save a few and kill the rest. This was news to me.
Hello; This is a topic outside the narrow "specific fish shop issue", is it not?
It sounds like this stored deserved this attention. I agree with RD, I have seen this sort of biased attention here plenty of times, usually unwarranted. These organizations always give opportunities to fix any violations.. so any continuing issue must be the stores fault.
This is very similar to CPS.. so many biased horror stories that reach the internet that rile people up, then usually end up retracted when the whole story comes out.
Are there a small percentage of cases that are unwarranted… sure.. that’s human nature. Are they worth NOT having these organizations helping keep the idiots out there under control… absolutely not.
In fact, this is the exact crap that pisses me off.. someone complaining over some imaginary slight, but only because of their own personal interest might be compromised and screw the consequences. Boo fugn-hoo.. you can’t keep a certain fish.
Well, you know.. I would love to keep certain idiots chained up in my backyard and make you do my yard work for free.. and I want to beat the crap out of you when I’m having a bad day. Watching you starve to death should be my right too… if not for these pesky laws….
This is very similar to CPS.. so many biased horror stories that reach the internet that rile people up, then usually end up retracted when the whole story comes out.
Are there a small percentage of cases that are unwarranted… sure.. that’s human nature. Are they worth NOT having these organizations helping keep the idiots out there under control… absolutely not.
In fact, this is the exact crap that pisses me off.. someone complaining over some imaginary slight, but only because of their own personal interest might be compromised and screw the consequences. Boo fugn-hoo.. you can’t keep a certain fish.
Well, you know.. I would love to keep certain idiots chained up in my backyard and make you do my yard work for free.. and I want to beat the crap out of you when I’m having a bad day. Watching you starve to death should be my right too… if not for these pesky laws….
No Skj, I disagree. PETA had nothing to do with this. The local Humane Society is not anything like PETA. In fact, this didn't even involve fish. (Lounge?)
But hey, everyone (Bill included) feel fee free to carry on with your fact less crusade.
But hey, everyone (Bill included) feel fee free to carry on with your fact less crusade.
What I am truly worried about here is that for now it is Riverfront but what does the future hold for the other stores. These groups work by picking one off at a time and it easier to get the little guy first. My family is an example. Off topic for the moment but does fit in. In March we were told our bear enclosure had to be 12 feet high including a 45 degree turn in of 4 feet. There had to be 3 feet of heavy galvanized wire buried in the ground to prevent digging out. Electric fence was no longer good enough along with game fencing to contain a bear. This condition only applied to us, Our closest competitor uses the unacceptable method but he was fine. We were also told that our perimeter fence had to be able to contain any animal on our permit. This sounds fair but how do you build a fence to contain monkeies without a roof. This last condition would have shut down every zoo in Alberta but these were only put on one zoo. Our inspection included 15 members that Fish and Wildlife had to pay to bring half of them in. Our closest competitor had 2 inspectors not quite right.
Now back to the issue when a person or store gets targeted they are basically done. Wayne may have had some mistakes like the turtles to me that should have been the end. At that time a true goverment agency held his future in their hand but nothing. It wasn't until a radical group under the guise of a goverment agency gets their nose in it that something happens. These groups have the right any business any time during open hours so the other litle guys had better be aware. Every year these groups change what is good enough for animals and the standards are now higher than what they are for people. To me this is just wrong people on the street can drink water out of the gutter but if you have a business dealing with animals the mice in your store must have potable water. They couln't drink the water the homeless guy drinks. I have been in the other stores and seen dead fish in their tanks all it will take is a picture from one of these wack jobs some day and another LFS will be targeted.
Now back to the issue when a person or store gets targeted they are basically done. Wayne may have had some mistakes like the turtles to me that should have been the end. At that time a true goverment agency held his future in their hand but nothing. It wasn't until a radical group under the guise of a goverment agency gets their nose in it that something happens. These groups have the right any business any time during open hours so the other litle guys had better be aware. Every year these groups change what is good enough for animals and the standards are now higher than what they are for people. To me this is just wrong people on the street can drink water out of the gutter but if you have a business dealing with animals the mice in your store must have potable water. They couln't drink the water the homeless guy drinks. I have been in the other stores and seen dead fish in their tanks all it will take is a picture from one of these wack jobs some day and another LFS will be targeted.
I don't know if commenting on this thread is appropriate or not, as a US citizen I know next to nothing about Canadian law and even less pertaining to invasive species.....but I have never liked being appropriate.
The idea that government either local or national conspiring to take away our freedom to keep animals is always going to be water cooler subject matter. The problem with water cooler discussion is there are always AT LEAST two sides to every story. I won't say any more on the guy losing his business or being fined or license suspended because all the behind the scenes events aren't being revealed and/or discussed.
I will say this....
A fact often ignored by many freedom seekers is WE HAVE TO COEXIST WITH OUR ENVIRONMENT AND THE CREATURES THAT LIVE WITH US.
So many ideas of what freedom really is that we lose sight of certain universal truths. In our arrogance, humans believe we got this whole environment thing sewn up. We cry foul when we are shown otherwise and scream (or blog) conspiracy.
As an American, currently serving my country as a soldier, I believe very strongly in freedom. I believe we should all have the same rights globally, because this country of mine allows for so much.
But I must also follow the law.
The law is made by the citizens whether conspiracy theorists agree or not. Complacently sitting at home in your armchair complaining about the state of things, blogging, posting or or writting your congressman does no good and only adds to the confusion.
I can not keep many species of fish because of invasive species laws.
But I can go down to almost any LFS and ask around....sombody knows sombody knows sombody.
I can even buy invasive species right out of the tank in plain sight often times.
But it is still against the law.
Whether I agree with the law or not is irrelevant.
Whether I am a responsibile fish keeper or not is irrelevant.
The law was made by people much more motivated than I....and I say motivated because I do nothing to rescind the law I disagree about. I did nothing to prevent the bill from becoming law. I did nothing to learn about it being made a bill. I did nothing to prevent the illegal releasing of non-native species into the wild.
So I have nothing to say.
Passion without action is just posturing.
There are many things about conservation I hate:
The seemingly endless land closures. The seemingly endless global warming crusade and my car gets more and more complicated and expensive. The idea that people think animals are more important than people....
But reality is, when I say nothing and do nothing but talk about what I hate, then there is no opposition to the laws being enacted that are supposedly taking away our freedom.
We are free, when many aren't, to stand up and disagree...and the key words are STAND and UP.
I am a firm believer that the people that surround me are morans. Sheeple. The Clueless Mass. So I should be out there opposite them on their latest drive for conservation right?
Well, maybe after my water change.
The idea that government either local or national conspiring to take away our freedom to keep animals is always going to be water cooler subject matter. The problem with water cooler discussion is there are always AT LEAST two sides to every story. I won't say any more on the guy losing his business or being fined or license suspended because all the behind the scenes events aren't being revealed and/or discussed.
I will say this....
A fact often ignored by many freedom seekers is WE HAVE TO COEXIST WITH OUR ENVIRONMENT AND THE CREATURES THAT LIVE WITH US.
So many ideas of what freedom really is that we lose sight of certain universal truths. In our arrogance, humans believe we got this whole environment thing sewn up. We cry foul when we are shown otherwise and scream (or blog) conspiracy.
As an American, currently serving my country as a soldier, I believe very strongly in freedom. I believe we should all have the same rights globally, because this country of mine allows for so much.
But I must also follow the law.
The law is made by the citizens whether conspiracy theorists agree or not. Complacently sitting at home in your armchair complaining about the state of things, blogging, posting or or writting your congressman does no good and only adds to the confusion.
I can not keep many species of fish because of invasive species laws.
But I can go down to almost any LFS and ask around....sombody knows sombody knows sombody.
I can even buy invasive species right out of the tank in plain sight often times.
But it is still against the law.
Whether I agree with the law or not is irrelevant.
Whether I am a responsibile fish keeper or not is irrelevant.
The law was made by people much more motivated than I....and I say motivated because I do nothing to rescind the law I disagree about. I did nothing to prevent the bill from becoming law. I did nothing to learn about it being made a bill. I did nothing to prevent the illegal releasing of non-native species into the wild.
So I have nothing to say.
Passion without action is just posturing.
There are many things about conservation I hate:
The seemingly endless land closures. The seemingly endless global warming crusade and my car gets more and more complicated and expensive. The idea that people think animals are more important than people....
But reality is, when I say nothing and do nothing but talk about what I hate, then there is no opposition to the laws being enacted that are supposedly taking away our freedom.
We are free, when many aren't, to stand up and disagree...and the key words are STAND and UP.
I am a firm believer that the people that surround me are morans. Sheeple. The Clueless Mass. So I should be out there opposite them on their latest drive for conservation right?
Well, maybe after my water change.
