This is very interesting
- Thread starter Joshuakahan
- Start date
What I find interesting about this, is that it is semantics.
The term cycling can be misleading. I have never liked it, but I haven't ever heard a reasonable, or simplistic alternative.
Some non-experienced aquarists hear it, and think think cycling, is simply filling a new tank , and letting chlorine and other twater reatment chemicals gas off.
Most seasoned aquarists know, its just take the building of a large population of bacteria (biofilm) and take it for granted.
However you look at it, either as a "cycling process " with nitrogen fixers, or as the bearded dude does a mythic but natural process with the magic of nature, it's the same thing.
The last tank I actually "cycled", I did it his way, by adding plants I collected from a nearby lake, rocks and wood found also from the area, and never the tank never experienced the 3 stage cycle, (no ammonia, no nitrite, no final nitrate conclusion).
Where it may be misleading for some new people, is that they may be under the impression, one rock, and 2 little water sprite sprigs might be adequate, and throw in 2 oscars, or 5 angelfish, or a school of tetras.
The reality is amount of natural materials, and plants, must be large enough to consume (adsorb, absorb whatever you want to call it) the amount of waste those fish put out.
So using that method, may need to look like the forest below for 2 oscar, on day 1, to work, unless the new aquarist can control the desire to start big and overstocked.
The term cycling can be misleading. I have never liked it, but I haven't ever heard a reasonable, or simplistic alternative.
Some non-experienced aquarists hear it, and think think cycling, is simply filling a new tank , and letting chlorine and other twater reatment chemicals gas off.
Most seasoned aquarists know, its just take the building of a large population of bacteria (biofilm) and take it for granted.
However you look at it, either as a "cycling process " with nitrogen fixers, or as the bearded dude does a mythic but natural process with the magic of nature, it's the same thing.
The last tank I actually "cycled", I did it his way, by adding plants I collected from a nearby lake, rocks and wood found also from the area, and never the tank never experienced the 3 stage cycle, (no ammonia, no nitrite, no final nitrate conclusion).
Where it may be misleading for some new people, is that they may be under the impression, one rock, and 2 little water sprite sprigs might be adequate, and throw in 2 oscars, or 5 angelfish, or a school of tetras.
The reality is amount of natural materials, and plants, must be large enough to consume (adsorb, absorb whatever you want to call it) the amount of waste those fish put out.
So using that method, may need to look like the forest below for 2 oscar, on day 1, to work, unless the new aquarist can control the desire to start big and overstocked.
It is just semantics. Don't call it cycling but use other terms. Don't refer to bacteria involved, but to Archaea. Nothing has changed.
If he didn't use the word "myth" or "debumnk" then he wouldn't get as many views. Simple social media tricks and sensationalizing to get more likes without bestowing any new information...
Sprayed coffee out of my nose reading duanes "twater reatment" typo
Nitrification driven by bacteria and not archaea in nitrogen-rich ...https://www.nature.com › nature geoscience › letters
I grew up on John Wayne movies, and Benny Hill.
How do you know it wasn't intensional?
I grew up on John Wayne movies, and Benny Hill.
I think the old guy is completely right! I believe the term "cycling" is a poor choice of word for what we all experience when first setting up a new tank.
The definition of cycling is along the lines of, "Move in, or follow a regular sequence of events", as in the seasons for example. Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter, and then it starts again. Round and round, no beginning, no end. That's a cycle to me.
In the aquarium we start with ammonia and then finish with nitrate. There's a beginning and an end. So cycling to me means nothing regarding aquariums, though obviously it is the recognised "term" we all use, rightly or wrongly.
In my opinion i believe a better term would be "seeding" an aquarium, rather than cycling it.
The definition of cycling is along the lines of, "Move in, or follow a regular sequence of events", as in the seasons for example. Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter, and then it starts again. Round and round, no beginning, no end. That's a cycle to me.
In the aquarium we start with ammonia and then finish with nitrate. There's a beginning and an end. So cycling to me means nothing regarding aquariums, though obviously it is the recognised "term" we all use, rightly or wrongly.
In my opinion i believe a better term would be "seeding" an aquarium, rather than cycling it.
Did he say archaea do not have cells? Not going to re-watch the whole thing just to confirm what he said, but they have cells, they do not have cell nuclei. We've had this discussion before-- beneficial bacteria are technically not bacteria, similar to blue-green algae are technically not algae.
I've watched him before, an interesting character with his own philosophy that many here would argue: no filters, no water changes, very limited aeration-- you see the deep bed of dirt covered by sand and the shallow water, right? He basically creates his own version of a shallow pond in a tank. Despite what many believe, it's possible to do a no (or very limited) water change tank-- if you want to go to the trouble of experimenting with some of the variations on the theme. Walstad tanks, for example. It's an old idea, trying to create a self-contained ecosystem, goes back to the era before mechanical filters. Cool if you can pull it off or want to, not for everyone and not for every fish-- how long does he think all those plants would last with Heros or Urau?
Meanwhile, most of us simulate something closer to a river or lake than a still pond, with current and water flowing through and refreshing the system (water changes, drip system), etc. Which is the more "natural" is a matter of perspective, I think. What would feel more "natural" to Retroculus, many Geophagus and Crenicichla, most Loricaids and Characins, etc?
Cycling, eh. Might be imprecise, but gets the point across to most people, especially beginners.
I've watched him before, an interesting character with his own philosophy that many here would argue: no filters, no water changes, very limited aeration-- you see the deep bed of dirt covered by sand and the shallow water, right? He basically creates his own version of a shallow pond in a tank. Despite what many believe, it's possible to do a no (or very limited) water change tank-- if you want to go to the trouble of experimenting with some of the variations on the theme. Walstad tanks, for example. It's an old idea, trying to create a self-contained ecosystem, goes back to the era before mechanical filters. Cool if you can pull it off or want to, not for everyone and not for every fish-- how long does he think all those plants would last with Heros or Urau?
Meanwhile, most of us simulate something closer to a river or lake than a still pond, with current and water flowing through and refreshing the system (water changes, drip system), etc. Which is the more "natural" is a matter of perspective, I think. What would feel more "natural" to Retroculus, many Geophagus and Crenicichla, most Loricaids and Characins, etc?
Cycling, eh. Might be imprecise, but gets the point across to most people, especially beginners.
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The nitrogen cycle exists. I assume this old guy has been consuming too much pot and/or alcohol.
The term cycling a tank merely means to have the tank capable of dealing with ammonia.
Next, in most of out tanks we do not see the complete nitrogen cycle as we do not have asufficient number of the bacteria which convert notrate to notrogen gas which then escapes the water. However, when once has massive enough amounts of the right media, you will establish denitrififcation to a much greater extent. If you have a lot of live plants then the dynamic of the nitrogen cycle are changed. Plants use ammonium (NH4) and do so much faster than the bacteria can use ammonia (NH3). But the plants do not create any nitrate.They do create oxygen though and the nitrogen cycle does the opposite. It uses oxygen.
Semantic shemantics- it is the process we need to deal with not the terminology. I could make the argument that most of the fish we think we keep do not exist. You tell a scientist you have cardinal tetras and he will tell you no, they are Paracheirodon axelrodi, there is not such animal as a cardinal tetra. And we all know this is not actually the case.
If you want to use the proper terms instead of cycling than all you need to do is call it what it is, establishing the nitrogen cycle in the tank, or you could shorten the term to cycling. I do not care what you want to call it, it has to happen in a tank.
So here is a novel idea. Contact a few Ph.D. microbiologists and ask them if we cycle tanks or not and what that means. They will have no problem saying yes we cycle tanks to establish the nitrogen cycle, they will not pick nits like the old get in the vid.
In general, the nitrogen cycle has five steps:
The term cycling a tank merely means to have the tank capable of dealing with ammonia.
Next, in most of out tanks we do not see the complete nitrogen cycle as we do not have asufficient number of the bacteria which convert notrate to notrogen gas which then escapes the water. However, when once has massive enough amounts of the right media, you will establish denitrififcation to a much greater extent. If you have a lot of live plants then the dynamic of the nitrogen cycle are changed. Plants use ammonium (NH4) and do so much faster than the bacteria can use ammonia (NH3). But the plants do not create any nitrate.They do create oxygen though and the nitrogen cycle does the opposite. It uses oxygen.
Semantic shemantics- it is the process we need to deal with not the terminology. I could make the argument that most of the fish we think we keep do not exist. You tell a scientist you have cardinal tetras and he will tell you no, they are Paracheirodon axelrodi, there is not such animal as a cardinal tetra. And we all know this is not actually the case.
If you want to use the proper terms instead of cycling than all you need to do is call it what it is, establishing the nitrogen cycle in the tank, or you could shorten the term to cycling. I do not care what you want to call it, it has to happen in a tank.
So here is a novel idea. Contact a few Ph.D. microbiologists and ask them if we cycle tanks or not and what that means. They will have no problem saying yes we cycle tanks to establish the nitrogen cycle, they will not pick nits like the old get in the vid.
In general, the nitrogen cycle has five steps:
- Nitrogen fixation (N2 to NH3/ NH4+ or NO3-)
- Nitrification (NH3 to NO3-)
- Assimilation (Incorporation of NH3 and NO3- into biological tissues)
- Ammonification (organic nitrogen compounds to NH3)
- Denitrification(NO3- to N2)
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