Thorichthys group size?
- Thread starter Buphy
- Start date
We actually just found an potential tank for him on a local fish group, 80 gallon bow front with sump for $125... Sounds to good to be true but the lady is moving and trying to get rid of all her tank (the list is long) so it may be legit. Anyways, what about a happy medium? Like some where in the 9-12 range with 2-4 males and the rest females? Not the 15 that other people seem to think is over the top but you still get abit of that "over stocking" effect?
Dimensions of tank will be key, then it just boils down to individual fish behavior. While it is ok to generalize, I don't care what species of fish it is community tanks come with no guarantees.
I'm assuming approx. 48" wide tank, I would try 2 males and a handful of females, so 8-10 fish in total. That's just what I would do, in the hopes that each male will claim a side, and remain relatively peaceful servicing several females. In a tank that size, if you go with 3 males you may find that the male fish that gets stuck in the middle, gets hammered constantly from both sides. In that case it would be better to go 4 males, but personally I never like that type of tank because to me 1 or more of the fish will end up living a life of stress - and this is when cichlids become prone to bloat.
I'm assuming approx. 48" wide tank, I would try 2 males and a handful of females, so 8-10 fish in total. That's just what I would do, in the hopes that each male will claim a side, and remain relatively peaceful servicing several females. In a tank that size, if you go with 3 males you may find that the male fish that gets stuck in the middle, gets hammered constantly from both sides. In that case it would be better to go 4 males, but personally I never like that type of tank because to me 1 or more of the fish will end up living a life of stress - and this is when cichlids become prone to bloat.
12 would be great in that tank.
When I first started seriously getting into thorichthys I too was surprised at what I was learning about stocking.It was my initial understanding that a pair was about right for a 4 foot tank.However I started reading about hobbyists in Europe keeping thorichthys in large numbers,it seemed that to them this was the only way to house this species.Digging deeper on the subject I started reading about Rusty Wessel,author and fish collector.
Rusty Wessel maintains many species but has a passion for thorichthys. I was interested to see how he kept them as he has spent a lot of time studying them in the wild and is an expert in this field.
Turns out his tanks are very highly stocked and the fish prosper.
people who know thorichthys well, generally keep them in large groups.
In the wild they will live in gangs and breeding pairs will spawn very close to each other compared to many other species.
Another interesting thing about thorichthys is their likeness for their ecological counterparts of the south American geophagus lineage.
They also live in groups in the wild and are, like thorichthys,sand sifting substrate feeders.
Both species have adapted a simular body shape and have steep long heads with the eyes positioned high,ideal for a life grubbing in the sand.The two are good cases of convergent evolution. They also do best in aquariums housed as groups.
Then I have my own personal experience with the thorichthys family.I have had quite a few in different scenarios over the years as I have always been most fascinated by these than most other species I have kept.
I've had them in pairs,I have had them in small groups and I have had large groups.They can work in any of these situations sometimes, but they always thrive, act more natural and look their very best in decent numbers.
I currently keep 11 thorichthys helleri in a 4 foot tank. I have 3 males the rest females.The fish are a good 18 months maybe 2 years old and have lived and spawned in this tank without any issues at all.
A had these helleri off a breeder in the uk who is a friend of Rusty Wessel. Rusty gave him a pair of f1 thorichthys helleri laguna catazaja. This pair spawned and my fish are some of the offspring.
The only real advice I was given on receiving these was. keep them on the cooler side, no higher than 25.
Feed sparingly and never feed bloodworm or bloodworm based foods.
There are three debated causes for bloat.
Yes as Rd pointed out stress is one of them.
Another is salt added as a buffer to harden water.
And the other is diet.
Many rift lake cichlid keeper have problems with bloat.The natural diet for a lot of these cichlids is mostly algae.In captivity they are often given to much protein and the result is bloated fish.
Thorichthys are notorious bloat sufferers.
You only have to read enough forum threads on the subject to see its a common problem.
There are other c/a cichlids that are prone to it like Lents for example.
The best deit for thorichthys is not to high in protein with some vegetable based foods included.
I would always advise caution when feeding thorichthys.
No bloodworm, feed sparingly and every other day.Try them on some green foods like boiled broccoli. I also give mine crushed koi sticks as it's vegetable based and a good cheap staple.I also give them grated prawn and daphnia.
Despite what's been said above bloat is very common amongst thorichthys.
I hope this info can be of use to anyone interested in keeping thorichthys at their best
When I first started seriously getting into thorichthys I too was surprised at what I was learning about stocking.It was my initial understanding that a pair was about right for a 4 foot tank.However I started reading about hobbyists in Europe keeping thorichthys in large numbers,it seemed that to them this was the only way to house this species.Digging deeper on the subject I started reading about Rusty Wessel,author and fish collector.
Rusty Wessel maintains many species but has a passion for thorichthys. I was interested to see how he kept them as he has spent a lot of time studying them in the wild and is an expert in this field.
Turns out his tanks are very highly stocked and the fish prosper.
people who know thorichthys well, generally keep them in large groups.
In the wild they will live in gangs and breeding pairs will spawn very close to each other compared to many other species.
Another interesting thing about thorichthys is their likeness for their ecological counterparts of the south American geophagus lineage.
They also live in groups in the wild and are, like thorichthys,sand sifting substrate feeders.
Both species have adapted a simular body shape and have steep long heads with the eyes positioned high,ideal for a life grubbing in the sand.The two are good cases of convergent evolution. They also do best in aquariums housed as groups.
Then I have my own personal experience with the thorichthys family.I have had quite a few in different scenarios over the years as I have always been most fascinated by these than most other species I have kept.
I've had them in pairs,I have had them in small groups and I have had large groups.They can work in any of these situations sometimes, but they always thrive, act more natural and look their very best in decent numbers.
I currently keep 11 thorichthys helleri in a 4 foot tank. I have 3 males the rest females.The fish are a good 18 months maybe 2 years old and have lived and spawned in this tank without any issues at all.
A had these helleri off a breeder in the uk who is a friend of Rusty Wessel. Rusty gave him a pair of f1 thorichthys helleri laguna catazaja. This pair spawned and my fish are some of the offspring.
The only real advice I was given on receiving these was. keep them on the cooler side, no higher than 25.
Feed sparingly and never feed bloodworm or bloodworm based foods.
There are three debated causes for bloat.
Yes as Rd pointed out stress is one of them.
Another is salt added as a buffer to harden water.
And the other is diet.
Many rift lake cichlid keeper have problems with bloat.The natural diet for a lot of these cichlids is mostly algae.In captivity they are often given to much protein and the result is bloated fish.
Thorichthys are notorious bloat sufferers.
You only have to read enough forum threads on the subject to see its a common problem.
There are other c/a cichlids that are prone to it like Lents for example.
The best deit for thorichthys is not to high in protein with some vegetable based foods included.
I would always advise caution when feeding thorichthys.
No bloodworm, feed sparingly and every other day.Try them on some green foods like boiled broccoli. I also give mine crushed koi sticks as it's vegetable based and a good cheap staple.I also give them grated prawn and daphnia.
Despite what's been said above bloat is very common amongst thorichthys.
I hope this info can be of use to anyone interested in keeping thorichthys at their best
I agree, this species will do best in captivity in numbers, but how those numbers play out will vary from set up to set up, and differ among individual fish. The same can be said with regards to geos, to which not all sand sifting fish from SA spend time in groups in the wild. Satanoperca are a prime example of a fish that is typically only seen in pairs when spawning, and in groups when juveniles. (as per Lee Newman) Yet on public forums, everyone believes that they should be kept in groups. Then there are fish in the wild that are never seen in large groups (such as P. demasoni) that tend to do better in captivity in large groups, as the overcrowding tends to disperse aggression. These are fine lines to cross when forcing fish in captivity to live and breed together. It doesn't always work, and yes, could cause bloat when the stress levels (think cortisol bursts) take place on a constant basis. This is most likely why some folks experience bloat a lot more than others, when keeping the same species, and feeding the exact same foods over many years.
LOL, says you. Again, bloat is caused by STRESS, in captivity this usually boils down to stress from aggression within confined spaces. In the wild, even when found in large groups, any fish can swim far away from an aggressor and or easily get lost in the crowd. In the confines of a glass box, not so easy, and the smaller the tank, the more difficult it becomes.
Salt does not cause bloat. Period.
Diet can cause bloat, but it is generally a rare thing these days, unless one is feeding a very low grade diet with very difficult to assimilate raw ingredients (which can cause intestinal blockage) or, due to operator error, as in someone that overfeeds by massive amounts.
Take the time to read the following sticky and everything should become crystal clear. Most of this has now been well documented by folks far wiser than a hillbilly like me.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/bloat-causes-cures-and-big-myths.456034/
BTW - I have been keeping Rift Lake cichlids for longer than a lot of members here have been alive. Bloat has never been an issue in any of my set ups over the years. Go figure.
LOL, says you. Again, bloat is caused by STRESS, in captivity this usually boils down to stress from aggression within confined spaces. In the wild, even when found in large groups, any fish can swim far away from an aggressor and or easily get lost in the crowd. In the confines of a glass box, not so easy, and the smaller the tank, the more difficult it becomes.
Salt does not cause bloat. Period.
Diet can cause bloat, but it is generally a rare thing these days, unless one is feeding a very low grade diet with very difficult to assimilate raw ingredients (which can cause intestinal blockage) or, due to operator error, as in someone that overfeeds by massive amounts.
Take the time to read the following sticky and everything should become crystal clear. Most of this has now been well documented by folks far wiser than a hillbilly like me.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/bloat-causes-cures-and-big-myths.456034/
BTW - I have been keeping Rift Lake cichlids for longer than a lot of members here have been alive. Bloat has never been an issue in any of my set ups over the years. Go figure.
I agree with RD, although I haven't kept many Thorichthys, I have kept a very similar group, the genus Astatheros, also Central American eartheaters.
I had always heard they were difficult, but when I kept them in groups of 8-12, there was never a problem.
I also agree about stress, and stress can come in many forms. Beyond simple aggression, stress can come from temps 5' out of optimum range for the species, feeding the wrong food, or out of optimum range pH.
I also kept a group of 25+/- P demasoni in a 55 gal tank, they were different ages and sizes, and lived that way for years with nary an incident.
To me, its all about the right conditions for the individual or group, and not mixing apples and oranges.
I had always heard they were difficult, but when I kept them in groups of 8-12, there was never a problem.
I also agree about stress, and stress can come in many forms. Beyond simple aggression, stress can come from temps 5' out of optimum range for the species, feeding the wrong food, or out of optimum range pH.
I also kept a group of 25+/- P demasoni in a 55 gal tank, they were different ages and sizes, and lived that way for years with nary an incident.
To me, its all about the right conditions for the individual or group, and not mixing apples and oranges.
Fire mouths are pretty hardy. I put them in the same as convicts. They're not as aggressive but they're pretty resilient. In my experience with fire mouths they don't get sick too often.
Now as for other less common species I don't know. But the op mentioned fire mouths in his initial post.
Now as for other less common species I don't know. But the op mentioned fire mouths in his initial post.
Although meeki were mentioned the op also inquired about thorichthys as a whole.
Thorichthys can be split into 2 groups those in the meeki group like passionis tend to be a bit hardier.Then there is the helleri group that contains species like aureus and socolofi.
This second group can be very delicate.I know lots of experienced cichlid keepers that loose these to bloat.
Some fish seem prone to it regardless of tank stocking.Take the yellow labridens for example.
Bloat is common among thorichthys. Meeki are generally the hardiest of the group but they still can succumb.
