Thorichthys group size?

[RD.]

In the absence of facts, experts abound......


No one is arguing about stocking levels, but that is not what you previously stated, Stanz, with regards to bloat. You said it was caused from protein, and then went on to mention salt, as well. This is not what causes bloat, and anyone stating otherwise does not know what they are talking about.

Ironically, according to Don Danko, from his article posted on CRC, and titled;

Introduction to Thorichthys

Tank maintenance is not difficult as long as the nitrogen cycle is managed; as with many cichlids, ammonia is not well tolerated. Problems manifest themselves in a loss of appetite, white stringy feces, and eventually a swollen abdomen all classic signs of "bloat." The best medicine is prevention by a light tank stocking and frequent partial water changes.

and

Thorichthys species are not picky eaters with most live, frozen, and prepared foods accepted readily. One of the few foods not taken is plant material.

Also, nobody is saying that certain species within this genus are NOT more delicate than others, but let's be clear on what cases bloat, and what doesn't. As Duane stated many things can cause stress in a glass box, to which I agree. Knowing that any form of stress will weaken a fishes immune system, and a lowered immune response is what generally opens the door for most pathogens, the key to keeping bloat at bay (in all species of cichlids) is to keep ALL stress levels low.


Quite often when one takes a closer look at some of these bloat problems, and real data and facts are supplied, one or more potential problems (stressors) will stand out, and if/when diet is an issue, it is generally caused by operator error (overfeeding), not from the actual food itself. I have kept some of the most bloat prone magnets in this hobby over the years, most would make keeping Thorichthys (certainly meeki) seem like child's play, and I have never lost a single fish to bloat. Managing stress levels from aggression etc in a closed system can be a fine balancing act, and sometimes even those who think they have it down pat can have disaster strike. But when that happens, better to clearly understand where one went wrong, than to hang on to the myths of yesteryears.

 

[ehh]

Although meeki were mentioned the op also inquired about thorichthys as a whole.
Thorichthys can be split into 2 groups those in the meeki group like passionis tend to be a bit hardier.Then there is the helleri group that contains species like aureus and socolofi.
This second group can be very delicate.I know lots of experienced cichlid keepers that loose these to bloat.
Some fish seem prone to it regardless of tank stocking.Take the yellow labridens for example.
Bloat is common among thorichthys. Meeki are generally the hardiest of the group but they still can succumb.

I don't know anything about the rest of the genus. The rest of them seem to be pretty rare. Well, rare in my area.

 

[Buphy]

Rather not use this thread for a platform for a bloat argument =S not being an expert on it I can imagine "stress" being the main factor but there are many things that can cause both physical and emotional stress, like a "poor diet". Anyways, my guess is y'all will have to agree to disagree. Still waiting to hear back about the tank so it's still all just research for my friend, and not decision crunch time.

 

[RD.]

I would think that any/all info that would assist you or your friend in their final decision would be a good thing. Also, if your friend or you are considering T. meeki, IME they are as tough as nails so bloat should not be an issue to begin with. Bunch of hoopla over nothing. I would focus more on getting healthy individuals from a breeder, and avoid the crap seen at most of the big box stores.

Good luck.

 

[RebeccaB]

We actually just found an potential tank for him on a local fish group, 80 gallon bow front with sump for $125... Sounds to good to be true but the lady is moving and trying to get rid of all her tank (the list is long) so it may be legit. Anyways, what about a happy medium? Like some where in the 9-12 range with 2-4 males and the rest females? Not the 15 that other people seem to think is over the top but you still get abit of that "over stocking" effect?

A lot of fish aggression is that there's not enough turf for each male to have a territory. I also don't think two males would be wise, three means the dominant one isn't always picking on the subdominant one. The other thing is these guys are sand sifters, so the tactics used to break up sight lines in rock dwellers might be less effective. Put down some driftwood, some pots that face away from the center of the tank, but have a lot of open space. Often fish will use a marker that they can easily see over as a boundary, and you'll have two males bouncing back and forth over the log or whatever, displaying but not closing on each other.

Wild caught or wild type swordtails should go fine with them. I've got 13 F1 Poecilia mexicana mollies in with a breeding pair of convicts. The mollies eventually get all the babies -- theirs and the convicts. Worst that's happened to the mollies is a split caudal fin.

What matters with most Central American cichlids is bottom territory, with a few things being top water ambush predators. Wide and long beats tall except that height gives the dithers some room that the cichlids don't care as much about.