To Styro or Not to Styro?

[Pharaoh]

Same concept applies to a car. If you drive over a 3" brick, the shocks compress and the car frame around the wheel only moves up a small amount. If you weld your shocks (tank with no foam) and run over a 3" brick. The side of the car will be 3" higher and the frame under a severe twisting force.

OK, we will use your example.... Even with working, non-welded shocks, the corner of a car will still lift off of the ground, hence twisting force. Foam may help this, but it will not solve it. If shocks solved the problem 100%, you would never feel any bumps. The bumps are still there, minimized, but still there.

Also, monitoring the status of your tank should be a regular occurance. If you running high volume tanks, I would hope that you are checking. If you first fill it up and it is not level, drain it and fix the problem. If you notice that it is off level 6 months down the road, drain the tank and fix the problem.

Foam is not the solution. Foam may but a warm fuzzy temporary fix to the problem, but what happens with the floor/stand/etc sink even more? The issue is still there and still needs to be address. You have solved nothing by using foam, just possibly bought yourself a little more time.

 

[vfc]

Posted by Pharaoh..”If you first fill it up and it is not level, drain it and fix the problem. If you notice that it is off level 6 months down the road, drain the tank and fix the problem.”

Most tanks under a twisting force are still level and an unlevel tank is not a problem if the bottom perimeter is still perfectly flat. If we follow your theory, we wait until the tanks cracks or a seam splits then we drain the tank.

You sure are determined not to accept ANY conflicting theories. You are either playing devil's advocate to keep this thread going or you are suffering from cognitive dissonance (you can Google that; here is a simply explanation "if someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know — particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge — they are likely to resist the new learning."

 

[Pharaoh]

Posted by Pharaoh..”If you first fill it up and it is not level, drain it and fix the problem. If you notice that it is off level 6 months down the road, drain the tank and fix the problem.”

Most tanks under a twisting force are still level and an unlevel tank is not a problem if the bottom perimeter is still perfectly flat. If we follow your theory, we wait until the tanks cracks or a seam splits then we drain the tank.

You sure are determined not to accept ANY conflicting theories. You are either playing devil's advocate to keep this thread going or you are suffering from cognitive dissonance (you can Google that; here is a simply explanation "if someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know — particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge — they are likely to resist the new learning."

First, let me just set the basis here. I started this thread as a discussion. which means there will be opposing positions, as noted obviously by the poll results. So what if someone does play the Devil's advocate. That is all part of a knowledable discussion. My intention with this thread is to state you opinion/fact and then back it up with factual evidence or proof of some manner. In that case, you have offered no solid proof that foam will fix a problem. I will in fact dispute any evidence that is not backed up by factual evidence. It is not too much to ask to have supportive information for your conclusions.

Now that we have revived the point of this thread, I would like to discourage you from making remarks about any and all members participating. It is my thread, I have set the guidlines very clearly and personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Now, please explain to me how a tank can be sitting perfectly flat (level) and experience twisting forces? Twisting forces would be caused by one portion of either the stand or floor being un-level, hence causing the tank to twist. If the lower perimeter of the tank was flat and level, then there would be no twisting force. Level is level. There is no other way around it.

 

[jworth]

Level is level. There is no other way around it.

thats all there is to it.

 

[vfc]

Posted by Pharaoh “Now, please explain to me how a tank can be sitting perfectly flat (level) and experience twisting forces? Twisting forces would be caused by one portion of either the stand or floor being un-level, hence causing the tank to twist. If the lower perimeter of the tank was flat and level, then there would be no twisting force. Level is level. There is no other way around it.”

I'll give one quick example. If the rear right corner of the stand sinks lower relative to the other three, there would be a small gap between the tank and stand (along with a twisting force) but the tank would measure perfectly level.

Sometimes the gap is under the leg of the stand, so even though there appears to be full and even tank to stand contact, there is no support under the sagged corner.

 

[jworth]

Posted by Pharaoh “Now, please explain to me how a tank can be sitting perfectly flat (level) and experience twisting forces? Twisting forces would be caused by one portion of either the stand or floor being un-level, hence causing the tank to twist. If the lower perimeter of the tank was flat and level, then there would be no twisting force. Level is level. There is no other way around it.”

I'll give one quick example. If the rear right corner of the stand sinks lower relative to the other three, there would be a small gap between the tank and stand (along with a twisting force) but the tank would measure perfectly level.

But if the styro compresses at the same rate all over, there would still be a twisting force would there not?

 

[Pharaoh]

Posted by Pharaoh “Now, please explain to me how a tank can be sitting perfectly flat (level) and experience twisting forces? Twisting forces would be caused by one portion of either the stand or floor being un-level, hence causing the tank to twist. If the lower perimeter of the tank was flat and level, then there would be no twisting force. Level is level. There is no other way around it.”

I'll give one quick example. If the rear right corner of the stand sinks lower relative to the other three, there would be a small gap between the tank and stand (along with a twisting force) but the tank would measure perfectly level.

Sometimes the gap is under the leg of the stand, so even though there appears to be full and even tank to stand contact, there is no support under the sagged corner.

There in lies the issue. One should first address whether or not the floor is level. From there, they place the stand in the desired location and ensure that not only is the top of the tank level ,but it is sitting square on the floor. The other thing that is needed is the verification of the sqaureness of the stand. If any of these three situations are present, then the need for corrective action would present itself. If one corner of the stand is not the same height as the rest, then the tank is not level, plain and simple. We fall back into the same situation of needing to ensure that all of the factors are addressed before ever placing water in the tank.

I have often dealt with issues similar to this when building stands. I have also ran into issues where the stand was perfectly square, but the floor was not. these are all factors that need to be taken into consideration when setting up a tank. They should be remedied long before the tank is filled. There should be no risk of twisting if the setup (floor, tank & stand) is properly addressed. The elimination needs of these deficiencies cannot be bypassed by foam.

 

[vfc]

Posted by joworth “But if the styro compresses at the same rate all over, there would still be a twisting force would there not?”

The foam mat would compress at different rates. Assume the foam is compressed 20% evenly when the tank sits on a perfectly flat surface. Say the foam supports 8 lbs of weight for each frame inch. Now when one corner drops, the foam may compress 25% around the other three corners and maybe 10% around the lower corner.

What that has done is redistribute the forces along the perimeter of the tank. Without the foam, the lower corner has 0 support. With the foam, the lower corner would have about 4 lbs per frame inch support from the 10% compressed foam. Having half support is better than no support.

Same principle applies to a raised corner. Instead of the raised corner supporting ~16 lbs per inch; the foam would reduce that to ~10-12 lbs/inch.

 

[vfc]

Attached is a picture of foam compression under a high corner. The foam is compressed about 50% under the corner and tappers up to about 20% in the middle of the stand.

 

[Pharaoh]

Posted by joworth “But if the styro compresses at the same rate all over, there would still be a twisting force would there not?”

The foam mat would compress at different rates. Assume the foam is compressed 20% evenly when the tank sits on a perfectly flat surface. Say the foam supports 8 lbs of weight for each frame inch. Now when one corner drops, the foam may compress 25% around the other three corners and maybe 10% around the lower corner.

What that has done is redistribute the forces along the perimeter of the tank. Without the foam, the lower corner has 0 support. With the foam, the lower corner would have about 4 lbs per frame inch support from the 10% compressed foam. Having half support is better than no support.

Same principle applies to a raised corner. Instead of the raised corner supporting ~16 lbs per inch; the foam would reduce that to ~10-12 lbs/inch.

Let me throw this out for discussion. If one corner of that stand is lower, that would in turn cause the same corner of the tank to be lower. This would theoretically cause an increase in weight on the corner due to the height increase of the water column. So in the instance listed, the force may be decreased marginally by the resistance of the foam, but the distribution of weight would also change due to the lower section of the stand, thus, still compressing the foam. Is the issue truly resolved?