To Styro or Not to Styro?
- Thread starter Pharaoh
- Start date
Pharaoh,
Sleeping on a mattress, rather than a hard floor, is another analogy.
I sleep on my side. The mattress compresses quite a bit under my shoulder and hip. Fortunately that allows my ribs, thigh, and other parts of my body to make contact with the mattress and reduce the pressure on the shoulder and hip.
If I took the mattress and put it between a tank and a stand that had one corner ½” higher than the other three; would the twisting force on the tank be the same as it would be if the tank was on the bare stand?
Please provide [FONT="]mathematical calculations [/FONT] to back up your response.
Sleeping on a mattress, rather than a hard floor, is another analogy.
I sleep on my side. The mattress compresses quite a bit under my shoulder and hip. Fortunately that allows my ribs, thigh, and other parts of my body to make contact with the mattress and reduce the pressure on the shoulder and hip.
If I took the mattress and put it between a tank and a stand that had one corner ½” higher than the other three; would the twisting force on the tank be the same as it would be if the tank was on the bare stand?
Please provide [FONT="]mathematical calculations [/FONT] to back up your response.
Vfc, just curious what do you say to tank manufacturers like Aqueon and Perfecto that specifically do not recommend the use of foam for their tanks made with a floating bottom? do you believe that they are wrong?
vfc;3014352; said:
my new fishroom is on ground level (concrete slab) with laminate flooring. probably a thin subfloor in between the laminate and the concrete.
so, no, I do not use foam here either.
I have many fish friends who have tanks setup on wood stands (they are most commong) and none have them on concrete floors. none use foam either. they think its ugly. so far so good.
I think that most of the tank problems people have out there are because hardly anybody buys brand new tanks anymore.
if you look at most of the 'new tank' threads on MKF and other boards, most are bought second hand from craigs list, ebay, kijiji etc.
the internet has made buying and selling used goods easy.
when tanks that have been stable and running for years are drained, moved, left to dry etc. that is when your risk for problems goes way up.
the stresses change on the glass/silicone in an instant. this can mess things up.
its not because you don't use foam.
its likely why your brother had a problem with your tank. its not because he didn't use foam on a wooden stand.
its probably because you drained and moved the tank..the risk of leaks and other problems like failing silicone goes WAY up when tanks are moved..
the thing is, I will not use foam if the manufacturer of my tank (Aqueon) specifically does not recommend it. I believe earlier in this thread there is a quote from them from another board discussion. (I think I posted it if I recall)
they know better than us IMO.
they know better than us IMO.
12 Volt Man & Pharaoh,
You guys have a very parochial view of the world when you recommend not putting foam under a tank. You claim you dont need it if:
- you use a metal stand on a concrete floor, you buy only new and high quality tanks, you buy or build quality wood stands, you have reinforced wood floors that wont sag, you align your stand so it is perfectly flat before the tank is placed on it, and drain it and start over if the alignment shifts when filled, and you keep a level next to your tank and measure it daily, and if off a bit, tear it down and start over.
The reality is >75% of people will have wooden stands, wooden floors, or both, many people buy used-low quality tanks, many people buy or build inadequate stands, many people do not know how to make a stand flat or even know you need to, many of them dont think about the structural integrity of the floor, and most people fill their tanks and never go back and check alignment.
My recommendation for closed-cell foam mats is insurance for the real world.
You dont need to wear a seat belt; just drive the speed limit, drive only on sunny days, drive only on straight-smooth roads, own only a late-model top-rated car, and have your mechanic check your car each day. The reality is
You guys have a very parochial view of the world when you recommend not putting foam under a tank. You claim you dont need it if:
- you use a metal stand on a concrete floor, you buy only new and high quality tanks, you buy or build quality wood stands, you have reinforced wood floors that wont sag, you align your stand so it is perfectly flat before the tank is placed on it, and drain it and start over if the alignment shifts when filled, and you keep a level next to your tank and measure it daily, and if off a bit, tear it down and start over.
The reality is >75% of people will have wooden stands, wooden floors, or both, many people buy used-low quality tanks, many people buy or build inadequate stands, many people do not know how to make a stand flat or even know you need to, many of them dont think about the structural integrity of the floor, and most people fill their tanks and never go back and check alignment.
My recommendation for closed-cell foam mats is insurance for the real world.
You dont need to wear a seat belt; just drive the speed limit, drive only on sunny days, drive only on straight-smooth roads, own only a late-model top-rated car, and have your mechanic check your car each day. The reality is
vfc;3016933; said:
The key term you are using is reduce the pressure is reduced, not eliminated. If we are talking about eliminating the twisting, you cannot rely on foam to do so. In no way shape or form did I say that there would not be any pressure exerted back up towards the tank. Would there be enough to eliminate the twisting force entirely? No. That would put you back at square one because you have nhot fixed the problem, only reduced it, thus at most, buying you a little time. The twist is still present.
I find it ironic that you are asking me to provide mathmatical calculation when I have encouraged you to post your data numerous times.
Hi,one consideration what happens to your tank when it gets shaked by a earthquake,like the one that hit me here?
I already posted foam compression calculations (page 11). I also posted anecdotal pressure estimates on a raised corner. I even offered a number of analogies.
I have three excel spread sheets of a frame outline with color-coded pressure levels for each frame inch for a 150G 6' tank.
One shows a perfectly flat stand with 192 individual frame inch boxes; each providing 7lbs/inch of upward force on the tank.
The others show a stand with a raised corner and the difference in pressure levels along all 192 inches using foam and no foam.
I even calculated the upward force of the foam in the center (and around the entire perimeter) of one of my 75G tanks that has a sag in the stand; 20% compression=7/lbs/inch, 50%=18lbs/inch, etc. Without the foam, the entire weight of the tank would only be supported by the ends.
As an engineer, I'm convinced of the merits of foam.
However, I don't want to post it until you start providing some mathematical calculations of your own. You have said no I don't believe you to every one of my responses; and probably will if I post the excel images. You must be a member of that party of NO that the democrats refer to; lol.
My recommendation for closed-cell foam mats is insurance for the real world.
I have three excel spread sheets of a frame outline with color-coded pressure levels for each frame inch for a 150G 6' tank.
One shows a perfectly flat stand with 192 individual frame inch boxes; each providing 7lbs/inch of upward force on the tank.
The others show a stand with a raised corner and the difference in pressure levels along all 192 inches using foam and no foam.
I even calculated the upward force of the foam in the center (and around the entire perimeter) of one of my 75G tanks that has a sag in the stand; 20% compression=7/lbs/inch, 50%=18lbs/inch, etc. Without the foam, the entire weight of the tank would only be supported by the ends.
As an engineer, I'm convinced of the merits of foam.
However, I don't want to post it until you start providing some mathematical calculations of your own. You have said no I don't believe you to every one of my responses; and probably will if I post the excel images. You must be a member of that party of NO that the democrats refer to; lol.
My recommendation for closed-cell foam mats is insurance for the real world.
Once again, I will reitterate. Name calling and slander are not welcome in my thread and will NOT be torlerated.
For further discussion, we will use the chart that you posted. We will also use the 75 gallon tank numbers for reference. the total perimeter of the trim is 148" @ 5.5lbs per inch of frame for a total of 810-814 lbs. For simplicity and example sake, we will say that the tank is suffering from a twisting force caused by one corner being 1/4" too low.
EDIT : I changed up the numbers as I realized I didn't make sense at first.
The twising force will cause the weight of the tank to shift to three corners in lieu of 4. This will increase the rate at which the foam compresses under the three touching corners and there would be little to no compression under the forth corner because the weight has been shifted from that corner. The three corners would then have to compress the foam to the point where the fourth corner began to touch the foam. Without knowing the full spectrum of the compression rate of the foam, the weight needed in order for the foam to touch the fourth corner is unknown, assuming that the foam compression rate raises at an exponential level as it compresses.
The foam you have listed will compress 10% @ 7.5lbs per inch. So, we can conclude that at 5.5lb per inch, the 1/2 or 0.5" foam will not even compress 0.05" or 1/20".
Question: How is the foam able to correct the twisting force placed on the tank when it does not compress enough to even allow the high corner to touch because of the 1/4" difference?
For further discussion, we will use the chart that you posted. We will also use the 75 gallon tank numbers for reference. the total perimeter of the trim is 148" @ 5.5lbs per inch of frame for a total of 810-814 lbs. For simplicity and example sake, we will say that the tank is suffering from a twisting force caused by one corner being 1/4" too low.
EDIT : I changed up the numbers as I realized I didn't make sense at first.
The twising force will cause the weight of the tank to shift to three corners in lieu of 4. This will increase the rate at which the foam compresses under the three touching corners and there would be little to no compression under the forth corner because the weight has been shifted from that corner. The three corners would then have to compress the foam to the point where the fourth corner began to touch the foam. Without knowing the full spectrum of the compression rate of the foam, the weight needed in order for the foam to touch the fourth corner is unknown, assuming that the foam compression rate raises at an exponential level as it compresses.
The foam you have listed will compress 10% @ 7.5lbs per inch. So, we can conclude that at 5.5lb per inch, the 1/2 or 0.5" foam will not even compress 0.05" or 1/20".
Question: How is the foam able to correct the twisting force placed on the tank when it does not compress enough to even allow the high corner to touch because of the 1/4" difference?
