Today in the Fishroom~ 6/25/12 Mystery Fish
- Thread starter Aquamojo
- Start date
Mo ........................... whatever happened to: "I love flowerhorns...pan fried with a side of salsa"
Well, that's kind of ironic. Years ago I might have been the poster child for hybrid haters. Then I had an epiphany of sorts. Our club of course has had...HAD...a very firm stance on hybrids, excluding and avoiding them. However we had no problem including fancy angelfish, discus, and various line bred cichlids. Myself and several other vocal members thought this was talking out of both sides of our mouth. The point was not HOW the fish was made, but that it was created at all. If you are manipulating fish by selective line breeding then you are in fact "creating" a fish that is not close to the fish that is found in the wild. If we were taking a stance on preserving the pure cichlid species, then how could we say "OK" to the various lemon yellow discus, veiled angelfish and the like, but saying NO to crossed species? The end didn't justify the means. It was still "messed with" by human hand.
Long story short...we had a discussion that lasted literally a couple years. While I was chairman of the club we were able to pass a proposition that in essence said that the clubs that hosted shows held the right to include or exclude hybrid fish in their shows. This led to further discussion about how the various fish would be described. Another group discussion ensued resulting in guidelines that basically put hybrids alongside other man-manipulated species into an ornamental category.
Trust me when I say this is NOT a popular decision. Many...MANY of the people in the club feel it is wrong. But you would be surprised at the number who are in agreement. It really came down to an all or nothing vote. Either we accept one or get rid of all...and no one wanted to say good bye to fish that have long held a place in the club. The really difficult part HOW fish like these are judged in a show. Judging the fish comes down to how does it compare to the wild standard. Pretty difficult to compare a lime green discus to the wild phenotype. The trouble with Flowerhorns is even more of a challenge. There are NO standards for comparison. So....ornamental class and eye of the beholder.
This is one of those "bag of snakes" conversations that I could discuss for hours. My personal preference is to maintain fish that are as close to what we see in the wild. The various "ornamental" cichlids are intriguing "eye candy". Some, like the Thai Silk or Red Texas I would like to have because it's pretty and I would enjoy taking photos.
But given a limited number of tanks, would opt for what I have now. What I absolutely appreciate its that many hobbyists, especially younger hobbyists, enjoy and keep the fish in question. And I am ALL for encouraging people to enjoy the hobby. Where the club should...and will... play an integral role is in educating the masses about the beauty of the natural cichlids and working with preservation of cichlids both in the wild AND in the hobby.
SOOO in the words of the late Rodney King...can't we all just get along? LOL Seriously you are always going to have people on the left and right of an issue. I just chose to take a step closer to the center.
Seriously? This was answered on page one. The fish is H. bartoni.
Thanks very much. I think Bartoni are a really neat cichlid and I would definitely like to keep them in the future. The "tuxedo" coloration they get is incredible.
In regards to the hybrid discussion the thing about flowerhorns that has always turned me off is the fact that for me what occurs in the natural world is fascinating enough. I could spend 10 lifetimes studying SA/CA cichlids and their behavior, evolutionary histories, etc.. I don't feel any need to create new species and try to mutate them into the most colorful with the biggest nuchal hump etc. I choose to maintain a certain amount of reverence for the incredible diversity that occurs in the wild. That being said I don't fault anyone for what they enjoy, I just wish they would be kept seperate from other naturally occurring fish.
I agree 100%. And that goes right through the other man made color enhanced, long finned line bred oddities.
Thanks for the explanation, Mo. I had the same epiphany years ago.
Man made designer fish have been around for hundreds of years, and are obviously here to stay, and as long as one keeps them responsibly there shouldn't be a division between "us" and "them". At the end of the day we are all just fish keepers.
As far as being kept separate from other naturally occurring fish, personally I am much more concerned with the sloppy breeding practices, and the crossing of closely related naturally occurring variants of cichlids, and being sold as something they are not, than I am with fish that are obvious hybrids even to the novice. IMO this is a far greater threat to the hobby than fish such as flowerhorns, designer discus, veil tailed cichlids, etc. While this has always been a far greater problem with African cichlids, it seems to be slowly creeping into the SA/CA portion of the hobby as well.
Either way, glad to hear that your club is going in a new direction, I think that education is always the best course of action.
Man made designer fish have been around for hundreds of years, and are obviously here to stay, and as long as one keeps them responsibly there shouldn't be a division between "us" and "them". At the end of the day we are all just fish keepers.
As far as being kept separate from other naturally occurring fish, personally I am much more concerned with the sloppy breeding practices, and the crossing of closely related naturally occurring variants of cichlids, and being sold as something they are not, than I am with fish that are obvious hybrids even to the novice. IMO this is a far greater threat to the hobby than fish such as flowerhorns, designer discus, veil tailed cichlids, etc. While this has always been a far greater problem with African cichlids, it seems to be slowly creeping into the SA/CA portion of the hobby as well.
Either way, glad to hear that your club is going in a new direction, I think that education is always the best course of action.
Very well said. I feel that as long as you are responsible with hybridization, I see there is nothing wrong with it. I find it very ironic when someone is willing to keep a very inbred Electric Blue Jack Dempsey and then say how very against hybrids they are. One thing that almost turned me of about this site entirely when I first started was all the purist. Being judged by the fish I choose to keep.
Midevils are a great example of of not being responsible and being uneducated about a fish. Labiatus and Citrinellus are so similar that people who aren't as knowledgeable cannot tell them apart. I would love nothing more than to be able to goto the store and receive the fish its being sold as. Another that I am seeing a lot of recently is Bifasciatus hybrids being sold as Synspilum. Its unfortunate that low grade Flowerhorn get sold as Trimac. I'm personally not a fan of same genus hybridization. You see it a lot with Amphilophus and Parachromis.
That is a nice little Thai Silk.
Midevils are a great example of of not being responsible and being uneducated about a fish. Labiatus and Citrinellus are so similar that people who aren't as knowledgeable cannot tell them apart. I would love nothing more than to be able to goto the store and receive the fish its being sold as. Another that I am seeing a lot of recently is Bifasciatus hybrids being sold as Synspilum. Its unfortunate that low grade Flowerhorn get sold as Trimac. I'm personally not a fan of same genus hybridization. You see it a lot with Amphilophus and Parachromis.
That is a nice little Thai Silk.
You nailed it. Here's something else based on your analogy. People kept, bred and have distributed Convict cichlids for years. Not too long ago the species was broken into three categories. So who's on first with that group of fish. Based on what comprises "hybrid" cichlids, most of what's out there are hybrids. You further complicate this with the numerous variants that are in the hobby...Rio mongo, Jutiapa etc. You could take this across a number of cichlid species, from carpinte to melanurus. What happens as we continue to lump and split species? That's one of the reasons I keep mine separated by locale. There is a bigger conversation than just hybrid or pure. Unfortunately I don't have much faith in the masses to give this level of attention...and quite honestly can't fault anyone for just enjoying a hobby.
Just a thought, with all respect, from microbiologists point of view.
Cichlid A from the Caribbean has evolved to live in warm waters 85+, and has developed a resistance to warm water diseases, such as columnaris.
Cichlid B from the mainland evolved to live in constant 70s temp, resists other types of disease, but never encounters and has no resistance to columnaris
cross A + B get something for a hump, or maybe extra spangling, but also get, the unseen/ no resistance or in fact great susceptibility to columnaris/duck lips and or other unseen maladies.
Duck lips then grows a greater virulence after keepers dose with great amounts of antibiotics.
Now..Breeding a carp to show colors, as in line breeding, is still breeding a carp to another carp
Although as we all know, line breeding dog to dog sometimes begets hip dysplacia, etc etc
Breeding different species of fish from different countries and varying habits that have evolved to fit their specific environment, is not always win win.
Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, beauty may also be survivability.
Just saying something, again, with all respect.
I also just acquired a half dozen bartoni from the gcca classic, fabulous fish.
Cichlid A from the Caribbean has evolved to live in warm waters 85+, and has developed a resistance to warm water diseases, such as columnaris.
Cichlid B from the mainland evolved to live in constant 70s temp, resists other types of disease, but never encounters and has no resistance to columnaris
cross A + B get something for a hump, or maybe extra spangling, but also get, the unseen/ no resistance or in fact great susceptibility to columnaris/duck lips and or other unseen maladies.
Duck lips then grows a greater virulence after keepers dose with great amounts of antibiotics.
Now..Breeding a carp to show colors, as in line breeding, is still breeding a carp to another carp
Although as we all know, line breeding dog to dog sometimes begets hip dysplacia, etc etc
Breeding different species of fish from different countries and varying habits that have evolved to fit their specific environment, is not always win win.
Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, beauty may also be survivability.
Just saying something, again, with all respect.
I also just acquired a half dozen bartoni from the gcca classic, fabulous fish.
