Treating Ick on Pikes
- Thread starter Cichlidgeek
- Start date
Thanks all, I really appreciate the input and ideas. I am looking at everyone's experiences and suggestions here. Like I said, I have had to 'cure' ICK dozens of times but this case is really frustrating.
Some thoughts on Malachite Green (MG) that run through my head:
Light sensitive, toxicity increases with low pH, easily oxidized, and not particularly healthy to handle to name a few.
Just switched today from QuickCure to Rid-Ich+. I have used Rid-Ich+ many times with outstanding results on peacock bass. I am going to follow the advice on the bottle for re-dosing every 12 hours. Scat also suggested this. I am re-dosing every 12 hours now. Both medications are a combination of MG and Formalin.
Some thoughts on Formalin:
Toxic in high doses, depletes oxygen level, highly toxic when combined with salt and elevated temps, and can cause gill damage if used in high doses.
I raised the temp from 85 to 90 with strong aeration. Two seeded sponge filters and my Eheim.
Aside from the high temp and Rid-Ich+ combo I am not adding salt.....yet. That will be next.
On the plus side, the fish are eating like total pigs and looking good otherwise.
Thanks again, all
Some thoughts on Malachite Green (MG) that run through my head:
Light sensitive, toxicity increases with low pH, easily oxidized, and not particularly healthy to handle to name a few.
Just switched today from QuickCure to Rid-Ich+. I have used Rid-Ich+ many times with outstanding results on peacock bass. I am going to follow the advice on the bottle for re-dosing every 12 hours. Scat also suggested this. I am re-dosing every 12 hours now. Both medications are a combination of MG and Formalin.
Some thoughts on Formalin:
Toxic in high doses, depletes oxygen level, highly toxic when combined with salt and elevated temps, and can cause gill damage if used in high doses.
I raised the temp from 85 to 90 with strong aeration. Two seeded sponge filters and my Eheim.
Aside from the high temp and Rid-Ich+ combo I am not adding salt.....yet. That will be next.
On the plus side, the fish are eating like total pigs and looking good otherwise.
Thanks again, all
Brian, the reason I don't have an issue with using the MG/Formalin combo on a more frequent or concentrated basis is because it does oxidize so quickly. As you mentioned, it does require additional oxygenation to use safely. Another pertinent aspect is that cooler water holds more oxygen. Using QuickCure in higher doses without raising the temp might be best.
In real bad cases, QuickCure can be used as a dip/bath. You use a much more concentrated amount. 250 mg per 10 gallons of water. I forget the timing but I want to say 5-10 minutes in a container with added oxygen.
I saw mention of water changes to help dilute the ich spore concentration. A good gravel vacuuming to help remove the dormant spores is not a bad idea.
Lastly, I recall reading that Ich needs light to reproduce so keeping the tank as dark as possible for the duration of treatment will help reduce the amount of spores that hatch and become free swimming. It is in this free swimming stage that the parasite is killed by the med.
In real bad cases, QuickCure can be used as a dip/bath. You use a much more concentrated amount. 250 mg per 10 gallons of water. I forget the timing but I want to say 5-10 minutes in a container with added oxygen.
I saw mention of water changes to help dilute the ich spore concentration. A good gravel vacuuming to help remove the dormant spores is not a bad idea.
Lastly, I recall reading that Ich needs light to reproduce so keeping the tank as dark as possible for the duration of treatment will help reduce the amount of spores that hatch and become free swimming. It is in this free swimming stage that the parasite is killed by the med.
Didn't know that about them needing light to reproduce, makes sense though. Learning a lot in this thread actually.
Peanut_Power;4932601; said:Didn't know that about them needing light to reproduce, makes sense though. Learning a lot in this thread actually.
Velvet (Oodinium sps.) does have a partially photo-dependent phase, but ich does not, or at least it has never been proven so. Terminating light access to fish afflicted is sensible to calm them or diminish stress, but not necessary to interrupt the life cycle of Ichthyopthirius mulitifiliis.
When dosing in abbreviated periods (say, twice or more often during 24 hours) it is critically important to observe your fish (duh). Yes, the medication is oxidized very quickly in aquaria, particularly those with filtration and substrate, but they are still toxic chemicals whose damage - as noted by Cichlidgeek - can be difficult to detect until cumulative. In tanks with heavy organic loads, medications can be bound and removed almost as fast as added; thus water changes before dosing ALWAYS is a recommended course of action.
No one is a fan of the old transfer method of dealing with ich?
I thought about the salt dip method, but that only kills them when they are in the egg stage. You still have the free swimming fish. Unless you are referring that he transfer the fish to someone elses tank, then yes, I agree with that method whole heartedly!
seems to be alot of Ick going around. the last few weeks it's been Ick this.. Ick that...bleh.. But learned alot about ick and velevet again...hope your guys recover fast!
when my punctata had ich i turned the temp up to 84, lots of WCes and treated with IchX. it was gone in no time
I hate ICK. Responses below.
The light issue escaped me until I read this. Thank you. I have now switched out the compact fluorescent with a twin 25-watt incandescent fixture.
Ironically, there seems to be more spores on the fish in the morning after the lights have been out all night. So now the incandescent is on 24 hours and this morning there were no more/no fewer spores. I don't know, maybe just coincidence.
Yeah, me too.....thanks guys!!
After each treatment I watch the fish for one to two hours. Normally that would reduce my stress level, not right now. I have a constant tension headache from this nightmare. Thankfully no dead fish yet.
I have some thoughts on the use of salt for this problem. See below.
Tell me about it. Thanks.
My temperature is now at 92F. I change 50% of the water twice daily and have been using Kordon's Rid-Ich+ for two days now. Prior to this treatment cycle I was using Aquarium Products Quick Cure for five days at a temp of 84F.
I just re-dosed the tank again, after yet another 50% water change. The tank was blue for literally 15-20 minutes and is now almost clear. The MG has been completely oxidized out and the formalin has been evaporated away and reduced to just the other chemical substances that make it up. I think the formalin that I am using is 37% formaldehyde and maybe 10% ethanol.....not sure, so don't hold me to that.
Regardless, after tonight's treatment I am not exposing my pikes to such noxious chemicals. There is only so much they can handle until permanent damage is done to their gill membranes.
I will say this, with such high heat my male multispinosa had his tube down and was all excited. I have to keep that in mind later when this problem is under control
Some thoughts on salt:
Salt is only good for treating ICK if the concentration of the salt is reached by which it destroys the parasite by bursting it through osmotic pressure differences.
Of a given population of swarming cells at any given time, there are some that are more sensitive to a higher-than-'normal' salinity than others. ICK is not an overly salt-tolerant parasite so all ICK will die when exposed to a very high concentration of salt. Just how much salt is needed to acheive complete eradication of ALL swarming cells is the million dollar question, and the one that I will be trying to answer next.
Despite the influx of noxious chemical agents and dyes that I have involuntarily added to my precious pike collection, my water qulity remains superb with a pH of 6.0 and the softness so low that my hardness tests (GH and KH) cannot get a reading. I am blessed with good water, oh and the pikes still have not missed a meal
Ok, off to thaw some frozen krill........
EDIT --------- Two of the three female Geophagus steindachneri that I use as dithers are holding eggs. All that and covered in ICK @ 92F. Go figure. You really can't make this shibby up. LOL
Scatocephalus;4932439; said:
The light issue escaped me until I read this. Thank you. I have now switched out the compact fluorescent with a twin 25-watt incandescent fixture.
Ironically, there seems to be more spores on the fish in the morning after the lights have been out all night. So now the incandescent is on 24 hours and this morning there were no more/no fewer spores. I don't know, maybe just coincidence.
Peanut_Power;4932601; said:Didn't know that about them needing light to reproduce, makes sense though. Learning a lot in this thread actually.
Yeah, me too.....thanks guys!!
andregurov;4933560; said:Velvet (Oodinium sps.) does have a partially photo-dependent phase, but ich does not, or at least it has never been proven so. Terminating light access to fish afflicted is sensible to calm them or diminish stress, but not necessary to interrupt the life cycle of Ichthyopthirius mulitifiliis.
When dosing in abbreviated periods (say, twice or more often during 24 hours) it is critically important to observe your fish (duh). Yes, the medication is oxidized very quickly in aquaria, particularly those with filtration and substrate, but they are still toxic chemicals whose damage - as noted by Cichlidgeek - can be difficult to detect until cumulative. In tanks with heavy organic loads, medications can be bound and removed almost as fast as added; thus water changes before dosing ALWAYS is a recommended course of action.
No one is a fan of the old transfer method of dealing with ich?
After each treatment I watch the fish for one to two hours. Normally that would reduce my stress level, not right now. I have a constant tension headache from this nightmare. Thankfully no dead fish yet.
Peanut_Power;4933581; said:
I have some thoughts on the use of salt for this problem. See below.
MonsterMinis;4933690; said:
Tell me about it. Thanks.
HiImSean;4935014; said:
My temperature is now at 92F. I change 50% of the water twice daily and have been using Kordon's Rid-Ich+ for two days now. Prior to this treatment cycle I was using Aquarium Products Quick Cure for five days at a temp of 84F.
I just re-dosed the tank again, after yet another 50% water change. The tank was blue for literally 15-20 minutes and is now almost clear. The MG has been completely oxidized out and the formalin has been evaporated away and reduced to just the other chemical substances that make it up. I think the formalin that I am using is 37% formaldehyde and maybe 10% ethanol.....not sure, so don't hold me to that.
Regardless, after tonight's treatment I am not exposing my pikes to such noxious chemicals. There is only so much they can handle until permanent damage is done to their gill membranes.
I will say this, with such high heat my male multispinosa had his tube down and was all excited. I have to keep that in mind later when this problem is under control
Some thoughts on salt:
Salt is only good for treating ICK if the concentration of the salt is reached by which it destroys the parasite by bursting it through osmotic pressure differences.
Of a given population of swarming cells at any given time, there are some that are more sensitive to a higher-than-'normal' salinity than others. ICK is not an overly salt-tolerant parasite so all ICK will die when exposed to a very high concentration of salt. Just how much salt is needed to acheive complete eradication of ALL swarming cells is the million dollar question, and the one that I will be trying to answer next.
Despite the influx of noxious chemical agents and dyes that I have involuntarily added to my precious pike collection, my water qulity remains superb with a pH of 6.0 and the softness so low that my hardness tests (GH and KH) cannot get a reading. I am blessed with good water, oh and the pikes still have not missed a meal
Ok, off to thaw some frozen krill........
EDIT --------- Two of the three female Geophagus steindachneri that I use as dithers are holding eggs. All that and covered in ICK @ 92F. Go figure. You really can't make this shibby up. LOL
Every batch of red hump geos I've ever seen imported was an ich magnet. They don't take chilling very well.
Good luck with your fish, I (and all fishkeepers) know how very vexing and stressing it can be. My first try with U. fernandezyepezi ended abruptly due to this ... that cost me more hair and sanity than 3 kids!
Good luck with your fish, I (and all fishkeepers) know how very vexing and stressing it can be. My first try with U. fernandezyepezi ended abruptly due to this ... that cost me more hair and sanity than 3 kids!
