true species

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fugupuff

fugupuff

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with all the talk about "species" part definition of a "true species" is that the "hybrids" cannot produce viable off springs. but it seems like science is being re-written daily, with more and more artificial hybrids being made. fish from completely different genere are being hybridized.,

and the rays, "sp" we see are making viable off springs, right? so what does that mean as far as keeping a species pure?

are p12, p13, p14, motoro, pearl, tiger, all different species, unique to their own, or are they maybe very closely related, variations of the same?

with most hybrids, people frown on and criticize, but it seems like with rays, the feeling is mixed at best.
 
the reason people are talking about not hyrbodizing the rays is because in the case of brazilian rays.... there isnt a viable source for pure blood anymore. Eventually if we keep hybrodizing rays there isnt going to be a pure leo, or a pure heneli anymore. Just all kinds of hybrids
 
I would agree with you Fugu that they are technically all 1 species and scientifically speaking they aren't considered 'hybrids' but more rather 'cross-breeds'.. One of my co-workers is always on my case about using the term hybrid, because that would more so refer to the blood parrot cichlid, not a crossbred ray..

I would say there has to be atleast 3-4 or distinct species though.. I just don't see a Reticulata and Tiger ray producing viable offspring..

I think crossbreeding rays is great based on the fact that we can manipulate for size and pattern to best fit domestic aquaria's needs.. We can produce our own viable, high-dollar offspring without removing rarities from the wild. I also believe it to not be as detrimental as other fishkeeping 'cliques' that frown upon hybridization because the gestation period and maturity times make it a very long process in order to deplete the gene pool, unlike livebearers, cichlids, and other faster reproducing fish.

But as the Turkeyboy said.. Not having wild livestock will definitely damage the breeding genetics of 'pureblood' variations such as Leopoldi and Henlei.. and it won't take long either.

What's funny to think about is there are probably alot of 'pureblood' Leopoldi's floating around out there, exported from Brazil, that hybridized in the wild anid have mixed genetics even though they show 100% leopoldi patterns and traits.. How pissed would you be to spawn 2 pure wild-caught Leopoldi only to produce a Motoro offspring ;)
 
turkeyboy85;2327831; said:
the reason people are talking about not hyrbodizing the rays is because in the case of brazilian rays.... there isnt a viable source for pure blood anymore. Eventually if we keep hybrodizing rays there isnt going to be a pure leo, or a pure heneli anymore. Just all kinds of hybrids
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Just remember you heard it here, on Monsterfishkeepers.com first. This, "situation" will change before you know it, as we speak... :naughty:
 
add to that. there are many not too many black rays of various sorts in this country. what would you guys guess? 1000 pieces total? less, ? I would guess maybe 500-700 total alive?

well, in Asian countries, there are thousands and thousands more, not just thailand, but china, japan, malaysia, singapore., etc...,many of which are not shown online.

how many rays in captivity in europe?

I've seen so many crazy variations from captive fish that it just blows my mind, and that is what keeps me wanting them more. maybe someone would be wiling to post some of those pictures.,
 
csx4236;2327901; said:
In the US 500 or less live blackrays IMO.
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WOW really? that is shocking never though about it but now that i think about it that number prbly is close
 
Miles;2327850; said:
I would agree with you Fugu that they are technically all 1 species and scientifically speaking they aren't considered 'hybrids' but more rather 'cross-breeds'.. One of my co-workers is always on my case about using the term hybrid, because that would more so refer to the blood parrot cichlid, not a crossbred ray..

I would say there has to be atleast 3-4 or distinct species though.. I just don't see a Reticulata and Tiger ray producing viable offspring..

I think crossbreeding rays is great based on the fact that we can manipulate for size and pattern to best fit domestic aquaria's needs.. We can produce our own viable, high-dollar offspring without removing rarities from the wild. I also believe it to not be as detrimental as other fishkeeping 'cliques' that frown upon hybridization because the gestation period and maturity times make it a very long process in order to deplete the gene pool, unlike livebearers, cichlids, and other faster reproducing fish.

But as the Turkeyboy said.. Not having wild livestock will definitely damage the breeding genetics of 'pureblood' variations such as Leopoldi and Henlei.. and it won't take long either.

What's funny to think about is there are probably alot of 'pureblood' Leopoldi's floating around out there, exported from Brazil, that hybridized in the wild anid have mixed genetics even though they show 100% leopoldi patterns and traits.. How pissed would you be to spawn 2 pure wild-caught Leopoldi only to produce a Motoro offspring ;)
Click to expand...

What he said. :popcorn:

But im stil gonna try scobina x tiger. :D
 
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