true species
- Thread starter fugupuff
- Start date
csx4236;2328138; said:
Ill agree with your numbers and logic on these, many people dont know about the brazil ban on rays... lots of great deals on black rays to be had... the problem is how to find the people that dont know about it
"but it seems like science is being re-written daily"
What we are seeing is not rewriting science, it's simply variations on breeding similar or differential traits on same or nearly related species. To have a true scientific declaration of species or traits you need to have a much more detailed description than varying color patterns or tail lengths for example. The most accurate and definitive method for species origins and linage is to do DNA research to determine true species specific traits and this would also lead to determining if similar looking species are variations of the same species or have evolved entirely apart from one another. I suspect that there are many varying traits on similar specimens due to varying regions that each is found. Captive breeding would seem to back this up. The road it seems we are going down here is the same that the Carp/Koi is going. This is where there is a base species that is breed to have offspring of differing selective traits. The same could be said for dogs and cats. This of course would require a lot of research to determine how much is true different species and how much is varying traits among the same or very closely related species.
One thing for sure is that this type of breeding is or will be driven by market prices for selective traits much like koi or specially breed dogs or cats. Also this type of breeding has nothing to do with determining what the origin species was especially if you don't know for sure if its only varying traits vs. hybridizing differing species.
"In the US 500 or less live blackrays IMO."
There's more than you think. I recently went to the Dallas World Aquarium (where zoodiver and I used to work) for a leafy seadragon symposium and they have a ton of back area holding tanks where there were at least a couple hundred Leo/henlei rays not to mention what they had on display in the exhibits.
2cts.
What we are seeing is not rewriting science, it's simply variations on breeding similar or differential traits on same or nearly related species. To have a true scientific declaration of species or traits you need to have a much more detailed description than varying color patterns or tail lengths for example. The most accurate and definitive method for species origins and linage is to do DNA research to determine true species specific traits and this would also lead to determining if similar looking species are variations of the same species or have evolved entirely apart from one another. I suspect that there are many varying traits on similar specimens due to varying regions that each is found. Captive breeding would seem to back this up. The road it seems we are going down here is the same that the Carp/Koi is going. This is where there is a base species that is breed to have offspring of differing selective traits. The same could be said for dogs and cats. This of course would require a lot of research to determine how much is true different species and how much is varying traits among the same or very closely related species.
One thing for sure is that this type of breeding is or will be driven by market prices for selective traits much like koi or specially breed dogs or cats. Also this type of breeding has nothing to do with determining what the origin species was especially if you don't know for sure if its only varying traits vs. hybridizing differing species.
"In the US 500 or less live blackrays IMO."
There's more than you think. I recently went to the Dallas World Aquarium (where zoodiver and I used to work) for a leafy seadragon symposium and they have a ton of back area holding tanks where there were at least a couple hundred Leo/henlei rays not to mention what they had on display in the exhibits.
2cts.
so what your saying is that a lot of the rays, like p14, p12, p13 are probably the same species just subspecies or variations merely? I could live with that, I'm not a splitter, but a clumper.
your 2 cts is great, probably more in public aquarias that are dedicated to conservation and preservation. however in the private aquarium, with many fish that die over the years, less is what i'm guessing.
Aquatic Resource;2328230; said:
your 2 cts is great, probably more in public aquarias that are dedicated to conservation and preservation. however in the private aquarium, with many fish that die over the years, less is what i'm guessing.
From what I understood at the symposium is there has been extensive DNA reseach but all potamotrygon pretty much have the same DNA code and would be impressively difficult to differentiate them in that manner.Aquatic Resource;2328230; said:
Aquatic Resource;2328230; said:
I was at the stingray symposium and spoke to George from the Dallas aquarium about there rays and was under the impression they dont have anywere near hundreds of black rays. You have any pictures to show this?
Certainly possible that many in public aquaria.. Visited AQA yesterday and they had less leopoldi on display than last year and about 6 males in with 1 female, who was the ray with the 2-3" stub tail. Im sure they have more behind the scenes.
If Dallas has hundreds I am driving there tommorow. How many people have seen A COUPLE HUNDRED leopoldi in one place in person? Jealous!
If Dallas has hundreds I am driving there tommorow. How many people have seen A COUPLE HUNDRED leopoldi in one place in person? Jealous!
Here is "The 2008 AES International Captive Elasmobranch Census" with some numbers of freshwater stingrays in public collections:
http://elasmo.org/census2008.xls
A total of 113 leopoldi and 23 henlei is listed there.
About the species discussion, latest info i got was that we will see some new species names in the future. The cf. histrix from Rio Negro, cf. leopoldi (Itaituba, P14) from Tapajos and the pearlray from Tapajos are possibly new species.
And the DNA work reveals, that COI is not the ideal sequence to differentiate the potamotrygon species because they are very close related. Hopefully microsatellite marker will give better results.
http://elasmo.org/census2008.xls
A total of 113 leopoldi and 23 henlei is listed there.
About the species discussion, latest info i got was that we will see some new species names in the future. The cf. histrix from Rio Negro, cf. leopoldi (Itaituba, P14) from Tapajos and the pearlray from Tapajos are possibly new species.
And the DNA work reveals, that COI is not the ideal sequence to differentiate the potamotrygon species because they are very close related. Hopefully microsatellite marker will give better results.
