I saw it on Jeff's list. Was sceptical and wanted to verify the ID, so Jeff emailed me this pic.
TSNxLei, I think. Could it be P. corruscans?
- Thread starter thebiggerthebetter
- Start date
idk about thousands for p. corruscans... Wes brought in true specimen about a year ago for $100 so pretty affordable for such a rare tsn imo... and i agree the specimen in question from Rapps doesnt appear to be the "norm" for tsnxlei but since every batch i see is a bit different im not surprised... nor would i ever think it wasent a hybrid. As u noted, the head, finnage and pattern arent even close to p. corruscans. Still shocked lol, Rapps is pretty reputable/well versed in his sp i.d.'s.... id almost discredit his last tsn available as p. orinocense based on this new i.d.... I know hes sold goonch under the wrong i.d. in the past. common mistake i guess but id say/gather hes more knowledgable in "not catfish" based on these accounts lol...
Very happy to hear it is not in thousands but quite affordable. Maybe you and I should ask Wes if he can get us more? Maybe other members will join in the plea? I wonder if Wes would do it if we vouch to buy enough corruscans, like a dozen+. For $100, I'd get at least 2.
Well, I had emailed Jeff the link to this thread even before we started talking here, so, will see what Jeff says but all you say I find agreeable.
Yeah, this makes me uneasy about the orinocoense that he was selling before.
Comanswoodwork
bought two (?) http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/pseudoplatystoma-orinocoense-pics-rare-tsn.658257/ and we have been talking about it and keeping an eye on what grows out of it.
Well, I had emailed Jeff the link to this thread even before we started talking here, so, will see what Jeff says but all you say I find agreeable.
Yeah, this makes me uneasy about the orinocoense that he was selling before.
Comanswoodwork
bought two (?) http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/pseudoplatystoma-orinocoense-pics-rare-tsn.658257/ and we have been talking about it and keeping an eye on what grows out of it.
I just took a new pic of the tsn I purchased from Jeff tonight. I'll post it in the thread I started about them. I considered getting one of the corruscans he listed but thought the snout look too short compared to what I've seen on other fish. I'm not entirely happy with my purchase from him but I'll go into detail about that in the appropriate thread.
Thanks for some folk's kind words 
I have humbly and agreeably made the appropriate adjustment to redescribe the spotted shovelnose in question on my stock list.
My apologies as I did not thoroughly research this particular fish included on most recent Brazil import.
It is a fish bred commercially in aquaculture facilities in SW Brazil (near Sao Paulo).
I have seen the same fish <erroneously> sold by leading Brazil exporters for several years also labeled as 'Ps. corruscans - pintado'.
In fact, it's the same fish I encountered at a fish market in Sao Paulo the last time I visited.
So interestingly, the fish is reported to be a Ps. fasciatum x L. marmoratus cross.
I am not disappointed to learn that, as it's quite an attractively patterned fish.
Since marmoratus do not grow nearly as long as tiger shovelnose, perhaps this may actually be a more suitable 'pet cat' than most tiger shovelnose individuals.
Regarding the aforementioned tiger shovelnose species Ps. orinocoense; I can assure anyone interested to read that I did not conveniently label these fish as such when I included a few on a previous Colombian import.
I communicate directly with my exporters. I requested this species to be sought by fisherman collecting in Orinoco tributaries. I know well that there are at least 3 tiger shovelnose species that may occur in the same waters. Without making my request too difficult to fulfill, I asked my contact to relay to fisherman that they may look for the tiger shovelnose with red tail.
Please don't get dramatic and throw your hands in the air, crying 'red tail shovelnose hybrid'!
The fish were collected from the Colombian wild in very limited quantity as described and not from a farm where hybridized red tail cat x tiger shovelnose are produced by the millions.
Based on what I could ascertain, this cat was identified to the best of my ability given the information I possessed at the time.
I spend a great deal of time keying out cichlids, catfish, characins, etc. that I import.
If you haven't figured it out yet, I don't get off on marketing fish by trendy names or telling the customer what they want to hear to make a quick sale. I'm in this business for the long run and work very long hours to maintain a level of personally acceptable accountability.
That translates to expecting much more of myself and maintaining a greater level of responsibility than most may ask of me.
Have you seen the huge variety of catfish species or wild S. Am. cichlid species that I have in stock at any given time?
They surely don't arrive with name tags clipped onto their fins or live in homes with their names on mailboxes when I'm personally collecting them!
The internet is a fantastic reference source. Access to scholarly/research published articles is very important to me.
Further knowledge of collection points is truly indispensable information when attempting to determine what species of fish just came out of the box I imported.
I earned a Master's Degree in Aquatic Biology prior to stepping off the deep end and diving into the specialty ornamental fish import/collection/breeding/distribution business back in 1989.
I still enjoy the opportunity to import or collect fish that are in need of identification.
If nothing else, at the end of the day (or career as it may eventually apply), I'd like to know that I was of some service and provided resources to individuals interested to participate.
The truth is a moving target. We strive to classify because it helps us categorically understand or interpret what we are seeing.
In the case of our beloved fish, classifications are ephemeral or transitory at best.
As we learn more about biogeographical relationships among the species, reclassification is inevitable.
So again, my sincere apologies for not taking the time to research the identification of 'pintado cat' prior to offering that particular fish. I appreciate any positive feedback that was offered to bring this matter to my attention.
I am but a humble human. I made an error through perpetration of a given name without adequate research. That item has been corrected on my stock list.
I have humbly and agreeably made the appropriate adjustment to redescribe the spotted shovelnose in question on my stock list.
My apologies as I did not thoroughly research this particular fish included on most recent Brazil import.
It is a fish bred commercially in aquaculture facilities in SW Brazil (near Sao Paulo).
I have seen the same fish <erroneously> sold by leading Brazil exporters for several years also labeled as 'Ps. corruscans - pintado'.
In fact, it's the same fish I encountered at a fish market in Sao Paulo the last time I visited.
So interestingly, the fish is reported to be a Ps. fasciatum x L. marmoratus cross.
I am not disappointed to learn that, as it's quite an attractively patterned fish.
Since marmoratus do not grow nearly as long as tiger shovelnose, perhaps this may actually be a more suitable 'pet cat' than most tiger shovelnose individuals.
Regarding the aforementioned tiger shovelnose species Ps. orinocoense; I can assure anyone interested to read that I did not conveniently label these fish as such when I included a few on a previous Colombian import.
I communicate directly with my exporters. I requested this species to be sought by fisherman collecting in Orinoco tributaries. I know well that there are at least 3 tiger shovelnose species that may occur in the same waters. Without making my request too difficult to fulfill, I asked my contact to relay to fisherman that they may look for the tiger shovelnose with red tail.
Please don't get dramatic and throw your hands in the air, crying 'red tail shovelnose hybrid'!
The fish were collected from the Colombian wild in very limited quantity as described and not from a farm where hybridized red tail cat x tiger shovelnose are produced by the millions.
Based on what I could ascertain, this cat was identified to the best of my ability given the information I possessed at the time.
I spend a great deal of time keying out cichlids, catfish, characins, etc. that I import.
If you haven't figured it out yet, I don't get off on marketing fish by trendy names or telling the customer what they want to hear to make a quick sale. I'm in this business for the long run and work very long hours to maintain a level of personally acceptable accountability.
That translates to expecting much more of myself and maintaining a greater level of responsibility than most may ask of me.
Have you seen the huge variety of catfish species or wild S. Am. cichlid species that I have in stock at any given time?
They surely don't arrive with name tags clipped onto their fins or live in homes with their names on mailboxes when I'm personally collecting them!
The internet is a fantastic reference source. Access to scholarly/research published articles is very important to me.
Further knowledge of collection points is truly indispensable information when attempting to determine what species of fish just came out of the box I imported.
I earned a Master's Degree in Aquatic Biology prior to stepping off the deep end and diving into the specialty ornamental fish import/collection/breeding/distribution business back in 1989.
I still enjoy the opportunity to import or collect fish that are in need of identification.
If nothing else, at the end of the day (or career as it may eventually apply), I'd like to know that I was of some service and provided resources to individuals interested to participate.
The truth is a moving target. We strive to classify because it helps us categorically understand or interpret what we are seeing.
In the case of our beloved fish, classifications are ephemeral or transitory at best.
As we learn more about biogeographical relationships among the species, reclassification is inevitable.
So again, my sincere apologies for not taking the time to research the identification of 'pintado cat' prior to offering that particular fish. I appreciate any positive feedback that was offered to bring this matter to my attention.
I am but a humble human. I made an error through perpetration of a given name without adequate research. That item has been corrected on my stock list.
After having posted on the forums here regarding the orinocoense I purchased from Jeff and having a conversation with him on the phone today I felt I needed to clarify that The remark that I made about not being entirely satisfied with my purchase from Mr Rapps. The only issue I had with the transaction was the slightly deformed fish I got and admittedly it has become more noticable as the fish has gotten bigger. Probably easy to overlook at the original size that I got them. The time to address that would have been at the time of purchase in private and not several months later in a public forum. I was ok with the risk I was taking with the species identification.
wednesday13
seems to think they look like reticulatum and that would still be very cool. Ill be sure to post updates as they grow. Im still learning so much about just a few species that I cant imagine keeping track of everything he has on his site. by the way
B
bigguapote
, the website is much easier to read now.
wednesday13
seems to think they look like reticulatum and that would still be very cool. Ill be sure to post updates as they grow. Im still learning so much about just a few species that I cant imagine keeping track of everything he has on his site. by the way
B
bigguapote
, the website is much easier to read now.
Hey Jeff! Thanks for the thorough reply and no, you surely shouldn't have to explain yourself after 25+ wonderful years in the hobby, last of all to me. You truly are a pillar of our hobby and every serious hobbyist knows your name and the stellar reputation that goes with it.
Perhaps my (our) words and angles do not convey it well enough, but all I wanted to do was to make sure of the ID before I bought. It didn't work out and we learned from it, especially I much appreciate the info above you kindly provided.
BG: ... So interestingly, the fish is reported to be a Ps. fasciatum x L. marmoratus cross. I am not disappointed to learn that, as it's quite an attractively patterned fish. Since marmoratus do not grow nearly as long as tiger shovelnose, perhaps this may actually be a more suitable 'pet cat' than most tiger shovelnose individuals.
TBTB: My ~6 year old is barely over 2'. I think Wednesday's and Chris' (aka Aquaculture) are the largest I've known of at ~30".
BG: ... Regarding the aforementioned tiger shovelnose species Ps. orinocoense; ... I asked my contact to relay to fisherman that they may look for the tiger shovelnose with red tail... Based on what I could ascertain, this cat was identified to the best of my ability given the information I possessed at the time...
TBTB: Very good to know and thanks, again, Jeff. We do hope it is an orinocoense. Always have. It's just having never seen one in the hobby before, we will try to keep a close eye on it with Comanswoodwork's help. Forgive our tendency to doubt, please. Doubt, somehow, always comes so much easier than faith because, as you put it, we are all humble, fallible humans.
In turn, I sincerely apologize if unknowingly I made this thing public against your wishes. The way I see it play out though and IMHO it should only confirm your superb reputation. Still, please, forgive me.
Perhaps my (our) words and angles do not convey it well enough, but all I wanted to do was to make sure of the ID before I bought. It didn't work out and we learned from it, especially I much appreciate the info above you kindly provided.
BG: ... So interestingly, the fish is reported to be a Ps. fasciatum x L. marmoratus cross. I am not disappointed to learn that, as it's quite an attractively patterned fish. Since marmoratus do not grow nearly as long as tiger shovelnose, perhaps this may actually be a more suitable 'pet cat' than most tiger shovelnose individuals.
TBTB: My ~6 year old is barely over 2'. I think Wednesday's and Chris' (aka Aquaculture) are the largest I've known of at ~30".
BG: ... Regarding the aforementioned tiger shovelnose species Ps. orinocoense; ... I asked my contact to relay to fisherman that they may look for the tiger shovelnose with red tail... Based on what I could ascertain, this cat was identified to the best of my ability given the information I possessed at the time...
TBTB: Very good to know and thanks, again, Jeff. We do hope it is an orinocoense. Always have. It's just having never seen one in the hobby before, we will try to keep a close eye on it with Comanswoodwork's help. Forgive our tendency to doubt, please. Doubt, somehow, always comes so much easier than faith
because, as you put it, we are all humble, fallible humans. In turn, I sincerely apologize if unknowingly I made this thing public against your wishes. The way I see it play out though and IMHO it should only confirm your superb reputation. Still, please, forgive me.
It seems like 99.9 % of all p. Corruscans sold by whoever turn out to be hybrids. So far I have striked out twice! What I find interesting is you can watch YouTube videos of guys catching them cast after cast but no one can import one. I don't get it
Yup, I've struck out several times but from what Jeff told us this should be no surprise - even the top Brazilian exporters keep calling the TSNxAchara hybrid by Pseudoplatystoma corruscans' local name "pintado".
Perhaps this is simply because they don't care or because it sells better for them - vendors worldwide see "pintado - Ps. corruscans" on the exporters' lists and order more than when the hybrid is listed under its real name or other names.
***************************************************************************
Great info with pics on when the real mccoy was available from Wes posted by Wednesday, page 3, post 22 http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/p-corruscans.238013/page-3#post-7473941
...
Another fake corruscans aka TSNxAchara hybrid in Longwood (Orlando, FL) $79
...
John Snookn21 got a dozen of the same deal last week. Jeff Rapps is right. All Brazilian exporters appear to call them Pintado - P. corruscans. Maybe they don't know better. Maybe they do.
...
Weirdfishlover's TSNxAchara: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/tsn-x-perruno-hybrid.665400/
Weirdfishlover's http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/tsn-x-p-perruno-hybrid-catfish.665737/
...
MrDuckBootz' hybrid, also labeled as spotted TSN http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/shovel-nose-id.669658/
Perhaps this is simply because they don't care or because it sells better for them - vendors worldwide see "pintado - Ps. corruscans" on the exporters' lists and order more than when the hybrid is listed under its real name or other names.
***************************************************************************
Great info with pics on when the real mccoy was available from Wes posted by Wednesday, page 3, post 22 http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/p-corruscans.238013/page-3#post-7473941
...
Another fake corruscans aka TSNxAchara hybrid in Longwood (Orlando, FL) $79
...
John Snookn21 got a dozen of the same deal last week. Jeff Rapps is right. All Brazilian exporters appear to call them Pintado - P. corruscans. Maybe they don't know better. Maybe they do.
...
Weirdfishlover's TSNxAchara: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/tsn-x-perruno-hybrid.665400/
Weirdfishlover's http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/tsn-x-p-perruno-hybrid-catfish.665737/
...
MrDuckBootz' hybrid, also labeled as spotted TSN http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/shovel-nose-id.669658/
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