Ultimatum !!! Help with tank !

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
Well I just purchased a 2 L of Prime and 6 x Bottles of Tetra Safe start rated for 75 G per bottle. I really don't want to mess this up so I really need a step by step that I should follow from now on, and the step I should follow today when I get home. I'm stopping by the store and purchasing 3 x bottles of Tetra Safestart for today since the ones I ordered won't be here till Thursday. Tank currently needs around 20 G of fresh water for top off but am afraid to even add tap water . Step by Step on water changes for today and the way I should do it every time plz.
 
Just speculating, but I wonder if the store is using Safe. Safe is Prime minus the stabilizer. Without the stabilizer agent, Safe has about a 30 day shelf life, once mixed. If the lfs is doing this and they run pass the shelf life and don't make a new batch until they sell all of it, it could explain the ineffectiveness of the treatment. Once again, just speculating
 
While the BB in a bottle isn't cheap, it could save further disaster. And as previously mentioned, if you can beg-borrow-steal some well established filter media from a safe and trusted source, that could turns things around almost instantly.


With regards to Prime or Safe and ammonia ........

And this is coming from a long time user & supporter of Seachem, some of their reps talk out of both sides of their mouth depending on the companies current directive, and sometimes what they say is complete and utter nonsense. Such as their most recent explanation on how much Prime or Safe is required to neutralize a fixed quantity of chlorine/chloramine. Please do not believe everything posted by a Seachem rep, some are obviously confused, others are simply talking company speak. No pun intended, but a couple of prime examples of what I am referring to.

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=7389

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=7426

Which resulted in me having a private discussion with the CEO/President and head chemist at Seachem, Dr. Greg Morin. Which honestly I'm not even sure that I should share on a public forum. Suffice to say their lack of confidence in consumer smarts is what caused the recent change in recommended dose rates for both Prime & Safe. Better to slightly burn a fish from ammonia, than have some half-wit overdose & suffocate his fish when using a reducing agent in a closed system, containing a fixed amount of O2. From a liability and consumer confidence point of view I understand their reasoning, I just totally 100% disagree with it. I don't applaud idots, or laziness. The only thing that I applaud about the whole situation, is Greg's honesty - although he apparently mistook me for someone else, or he might not have been quite so frank in his response. lol


The following was posted by a Seachem rep many years ago, which may possibly only hold true for the 24 hr timeframe as previously posted, I honestly have no idea. Of course none of this really matters, if there is no bio bacteria present to utilize the ammonia, it's not going anywhere and could possibly return to NH3. (free ammonia) Personally I would only trust my own testing, within my own system. What I can state with 100% certainty is that the Seachem Ammonia Alert sensor work exactly as the manufacturer states. It's the exact same technology as found in the Seachem Multitest for Ammonia. http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.html


From Seachem ........


If the pH drops ammonia will not be

released back into the water, and even if it did, it would be

ionized ammonia (NH4+) which is totally non-toxic; only free

ammonia NH3 is toxic. The only time ammonia removal products will

release ammonia is if the pH goes up, WAY UP, like around 12 to 14!

That only occurs when testing with Nessler or salicylate based

ammonia kits... they raise the pH to convert all ammonia to free

ammonia and test for free ammonia at pH 14. So actually if you are

using ammonia removal products and test for ammonia with these type

of tests you will get false readings for ammonia. You can get a

somewhat accurate result with a salycilate based kit if you take

your reading right away rather than waiting the full prescribed

time, but the trick is knowing when exactly to take that reading.

Our Ammonia Alert and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia both use a

gas exchange based sensor technology that is not affected by the

presence of ammonia removal products. Both give an accurate reading

for free ammonia without any interference.


Depending on how much chloramines you have you can use either Prime

or Safe. Prime is a liquid product for removing, chlorine,

chloramine and ammonia. It actually removes chlorine by converting

it to harmless chloride; the chloramine is removed by breaking the

chlorine-ammonia bond, the chlorine is then reduced to chloride and

the ammonia is then bound until it is utilized within the biological

filtration. Unless you raise your pH to 12 it will not release the

ammonia back. Safe is a dry version of Prime and is thus more

concentrated. Economically it is the best way to go, however many

prefer using a liquid product for ease of use.


All of the ammonia removal products on the market work chemically essentially the same way,
they reduce chlorine to choride and bind up ammonia. But, the chemical species used are all slightly different.
 
To the OP ........ see post #50 by Tom. Right now you need to stabilize your tank - forget about everything else! Follow the directions on the label, and get your tank cycled. This is exactly why some of us don't promote JDM style set ups, because when things go bad, they go REALLY bad. You are now attempting to cycle a tank that contains large fish, which is never ideal. So use the products and advice given by the members here, monitor water parameters closely, and adjust as required.
 
To the OP ........ see post #50 by Tom. Right now you need to stabilize your tank - forget about everything else! Follow the directions on the label, and get your tank cycled. This is exactly why some of us don't promote JDM style set ups, because when things go bad, they go REALLY bad. You are now attempting to cycle a tank that contains large fish, which is never ideal. So use the products and advice given by the members here, monitor water parameters closely, and adjust as required.

two questions I have. He stated that ammonia is less harmful at lower temperatures . This means I should lower the temperature on my tank? I currently have it at 80. Also what does JDM means, sorry for the dumb question, I had to learn everything the hard way in this hobby.
 
Well I just purchased a 2 L of Prime and 6 x Bottles of Tetra Safe start rated for 75 G per bottle. I really don't want to mess this up so I really need a step by step that I should follow from now on, and the step I should follow today when I get home. I'm stopping by the store and purchasing 3 x bottles of Tetra Safestart for today since the ones I ordered won't be here till Thursday. Tank currently needs around 20 G of fresh water for top off but am afraid to even add tap water . Step by Step on water changes for today and the way I should do it every time plz.

I havent used the stuff in along time and dont rember all the details. Do a quick search on safestart on google all the info you need. I do remember this... i dod large wcs then waited 24hrs (think) then doses the safestart. Continued to test the water.
They advise that you hold off on any wc's for atleast 7 days or something like that. You have to shake each boytle like crazy...i mean shake the hell out of this stuff. Ammonia should drop if it doesnt they advise another dose. I never had the ammonia spike but you have allot going on in that tank. I also never saw nitrites. Always went from ammonia straight to nitrates. When i get home later i will dig around for more detailed info
 
JDM = Japanese Domestic Market, aka heavily stocked tanks containing large fish


An excellent read on the toxicity of free ammonia, and fish, can be found in the following link.

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

As demonstrated in that link, NH3 increases as temperature, and pH increase. Make sure to scroll down and read the lethal concentrations info supplied.
 
Well, as soon as I get home ill lower the temperature to 75, top off tank with 10 % water. Add dosage of prime of 220 G. Then drop in 3 x Bottles of tetrasafe start then cross my fingers.... I want to thank everyone for the help, ill make sure ill keep thread open for a follow up condition of the tank.
 
Out of curiosity do you think pretreating a bunch of water, feeding fish a ton and then doing a near 100% water change would give the fish the chance to got a few weeks without feeding would be a solution in a scenario like this? Obviously it wouldn't be ideal at this point but I'm thinking as a potential solution in the future. It might not work, I'm honestly not sure if the amount of ammonia would critically effect them during short exposure, or how long it would take for these fish to produce a waste level low enough that you can water change without ammonia shooting back up instantly. These are just some random thoughts, I feel like it would be a bit more efficient than ammonia driven water changes. That said, nitrites can get you quick so it might not be realistic.
 
Nooo!
You have to wait between adding prime and the safestart. Read up on the product before you use it. I sent you a pm of a thread from a site im no longer a member of. Ask questions here so that rd and others can chime in
Well, as soon as I get home ill lower the temperature to 75, top off tank with 10 % water. Add dosage of prime of 220 G. Then drop in 3 x Bottles of tetrasafe start then cross my fingers.... I want to thank everyone for the help, ill make sure ill keep thread open for a follow up condition of the tank.
 
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