Under stocked vs over stocked...

[Miguel]

Neill,

Lets take it pace by pace.

I have not hesitated to criticize the tank shown above.

When I mention the capability required of some JDM fiskeepers ( and therefore mentioned a tank lika that- not, forcibly, THAT TANK which I do not know -, why do you assume I am talking about garden hoses? Why not the engineer mounted systems ( that I even mentioned in the previous thread about the same issue ) ? I am not one with your ability to fly between threads and cut and paste the previously stated, so I won't quote it back in here.

And no, the Umbee does not look healthy. Looks awfull even, possibly terribly infested internally.

 

[Miguel]

BTW Miguel, you ask if any fish looks unhealthy? My response to that is when a fish in a tank such as this does become unhealthy, most people will never know as the owner will simply replace it with another specimen. Also, snap shots taken in a single moment in time seldom reflect what is taking place over the long haul. I personally don't measure success in weeks, or months. Some of those fish have the capacity to live 20 yrs or more in captivity.

Snap shots is all we have, in a site such as this, to make any sort of judgment. Based on that, judgments made, opinions given, are based on that, exactly, and solely. Snap shots ( at most a vid, which I most always lack the patience to watch )

So, again, what is your point? Because I am assuming that this is not two old geezers in some sort of championship, right?

 

[Deathinnumbers]

What it all boils down to its a hobby enjoy it the way u like it. If u liked it cramped n changing out water n cleaning filters daily than be it. I hate it whenever I lose a fish from terrortorial fights to them dieing for no reason we understand. It's really sucks cause we provide a decent life for them. But in the garbage the fish goes n new one in its place cause in the end it's just a fish.

 

[RD.]

Miguel, my point was/is a rather simple one I thought. You suggested to both Alex & I that these type of tanks did not exist on MFK - when clearly they do. These are the JDM style tanks that some of us have been referring to in this discussion, not the type of set ups that you are referring to. This topic was about "overstocked" tanks, which is what Alex & I have been referring to all along. A subject that at some level plays out almost every day here on MFK.

And no, you don't just have snap shots if you actually know who the owner is, and have been reading their fish hoarding comments here on MFK, and elsewhere for a few years. I don't form opinions by just a photo or two posted on the internet.

Either way, I've said about all that I'm interested in as far as this discussion goes.

Happy fishkeeping.

 

[ecoli73]

Last time I went off to Asia for over a month, I lost no fish and only thing damaged was a couple of spots of my floor because of a spray bar...

Light automatic feeding, nitrate reducing plants were the key. I had 65ish 2"-6" mix of fish in a 300 tall. My end nitrate is somewhere around 40 ppm.

It really doesn't have to be high tech to achieve these things, even on somewhat overstocked tanks(not that I advise to go without water change for a month as a habit of course.)

 

[aldiaz33]

Thank You Alex.

Some ( most ) of those tanks really surpass the admissible. ( I admit that I was a bit forgotten ).

I still maintain that to keep a tank like that requires a ton of effort and maintenance skill at the disposal of rather few and qualified, keepers ( does any fish look unhealthy?).

But the examples shown ( albeit one of them I do not agree that it should be a part of this example ) are, in fact, examples of hoarding.

I will end, however, with 2 observations: (i) by maintaining that those skilled keepers , they were doing it for themselves, not for status; (ii) the tanks i mentioned and the old timers I mentioned in the other thread did not have so crowded tanks.

It was a period. s yopu youirself stated, there is no sense in bashing and decrying, but to see that there might be other ways to do it.
M

I'm glad you think it's not admissable; I understand that if you don't have a drip system setup it is a lot of work, but otherwise it really isn't that much work. I do not believe that because something requires a lot of effort it means that it is a worthwhile endeavor...I don't think that's what you mean, but it sounds like that's what you are saying.

I realize, there isn’t much you can do to change people’s minds…other than shedding light on the darker side of trying to maintain tanks like that…the death toll is crazy high; there is plenty of evidence provided by some of the JDMers themselves.

I didn’t want this thread to turn into a witch hunt which is why I kept it in general terms until I was asked to post pictures.

I mentioned earlier it's tough to debate a topic like this without specific examples so perhaps it was necessary to post them up. I know the owners of those tanks already dislike me because I have voiced my opinion before (although I want to be clear I have nothing against them personally...just with the way they keep fish...there's a difference),so no love lost there.

Love how people assume they have mass die offs n just replace them. Is there any proof were a keeper is replacing g fish on a daily? Weekly? Monthly? Basis
This is a hobby and people enjoy there hobbies differently.

There is plenty of proof.

Some of the owners of those tanks chose to share pix of quite a few of their bad results, some will admit to losing lots of fish (but it’s their money, so who is anyone to tell them what they are doing is wrong) and there are others who despite posting a few photos of totally incompatible long term inhabitants, deny that they have lost any fish and say they have sold them when asked for a status update (with some of the combos they were bragging about, I believe them to be lying, but that’s just my opinion).

I don’t feel like posting them here, but If you’d like to see photos of epic fishkeeping fails, see post # 97 in the following thread: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?496601-770-Gallon-Filtration/page3

My school of loaches agree with you

Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

I think a major problem in stocking a tank is that people tend to stock based on the baby/juvi size of their fish. I think we have all been guilty of this. I saw that you posted to the “Post pix of your overstocked tanks” thread and while I don’t think you are currently overstocked, I think it will be a different story once your fish reach their adult size and start to really fill out. I love a school of Clown Loaches and I think if you are going to overstock any fish, it should be CLs, but think of 30+ 9” clown loaches in your tank (Yes, they grow slow, but they should get there.)…that loach clan in and of itself is a pretty hefty bio-load. Add up all of the other species you are keeping (once they reach full size) and you may need to do a couple water changes per week to keep your nitrates down, pothos or not. I'm not saying it's not doable, just making a point about stocking tanks based on acquiring juveniles versus fully grown fish.

I wonder how many "Look at my new pet RTC in my 55G" threads there would be if they were only available at their adult (3') size. It's a ridiculous exercise, but I think it illustrates my point pretty well.

Overstock going to understock on my community due to (1) maintenance (2) space issues (cringe) and (3) less food needed. Currently selling and disposing (giving away free, YEHEY!) some of my fish. I however found/read in the past few weeks about the benefits of overstocking overly aggressive fish, midevils for example. Keeps them calm as they said based on experience so maybe I will try that in the future. Problem is, my eyes still tend to wonder onto the overstocking side when I see too many empty spaces but I get to control myself now <Trust me, I hate myself for impulse buys.>. I hope!

The more we discuss stocking decisions, the more I think that these aggressive territorial species all belong in their own tanks. If people want to keep a community tank, perhaps they should buy community fish. I know this is a crazy concept because so many people keep SA/CA cichlid tanks, but so many of them have these brutal hierarchies where the low fish on the totem pole is constantly beaten up with fins shredded, and scales missing…in nature, the beat fish can swim away; in our tanks they are stuck. It’s like locking Mike Tyson in all his rage in a cage with Steve Urkel.

Some will say that I am guilty of anthropomorphizing, but to see the smaller fish try to escape the aggressor and in some cases look for places to hide (sometimes jumping out of a tank to their death)…you can’t tell me that they are not experiencing levels of stress that we should be trying to avoid.

To lighten the mood…

 

[Miguel]

Glad you understand, Neill, the tanks I was referring to, and glad that you do not do me the injustice of believing I endorse the kind of tank shonw above ( if at one point in time, due to the "novelty", I may have given a positive comment on them ( I am not saying I did, but I know someone is just going to try and find out )

And no, I do not know the tanks you guys know, nor the persons you seem to know. I live quite far from you guys, would have to cross the ocean And neither do I have ( regrettably, the time to read all the "fish hoarding "comments at MFK. Modding does not, most unfortunately, allow for that.

I know the tanks I mentioned; I find ( you yourself stated that in the other thread ) that those "pioneering " monsterkeepers took aquaristic ( and related issues ) further than most hobbyists that have gained a lot of expertise through them ( those who have ).

It is, perhaps, a question of semantics. I defended well done, well maintained JDM's. If you were referring to the tanks shown, that was not what I meant, neither what I condoned.

So perhaps, english being my third language, the error is mine; I defended a well controlled heavy stocking, not "Overstocking". My bad.

But what somewhat irks me, is the somewhat ( again the same word ) "confrontational" way ( for lack of a better word ) you employ.

Cheers

M

 

[ecoli73]

That is why I am adding a second 2262 to my system. For bio capacity and flow...

So in total, I have about equivalent of 3 2262s on my tank now(all my old smaller filters adds up to be a 2262)...a little over filtered and pretty high current.

For now anyway, come late at night, you will not find any clowns in my tank...and I am redoing my drift wood arrangement for the growing(size wise) population...

 

[Deathinnumbers]

That thread is crazy. First her setup is amazing so peaceful looking
Then those other tanks n dead fish. It looks like most of deaths were done by other fish. So it is a case of putting species that shouldent be kept together or water quality problems.that is alot of wasted dead money but if u have the money what big deal is it. Sometimes being in that cramped tank is better than be cramped in a lfs tank.

 

[Drstrangelove]

What it all boils down to its a hobby enjoy it the way u like it. If u liked it cramped n changing out water n cleaning filters daily than be it. I hate it whenever I lose a fish from terrortorial fights to them dieing for no reason we understand. It's really sucks cause we provide a decent life for them. But in the garbage the fish goes n new one in its place cause in the end it's just a fish.

I'm not sure if I can write this properly. I don't place you in the least bit as some one who takes fun in harming fish, so please don't take it that way. I think your posts resonate with me because while you have a serious thoughtful attitude towards fish, your words are in some ways the same that much lesser hobbyists use. While you have a mature approach with a humanistic value, theirs is purely self centered. Again, I don't think for a second that you'd spend time here if you were the latter.

It's just a fish to some people. It's not just a fish to others. The same could be said for homes, classic cars, historical landmarks, paintings, California Redwoods, cats, dogs, lions, tigers and children. I understand that some people value or respect some things differently than other people. It's part of our nature to be both compassionate and cold-hearted about things.

Keeping fish as pets, like all things, includes people who care (about the animals they keep) and people who don't care (about the animanls they keep) and of course many people in-between.

Most people (I think) would know that you can't properly keep a large dog penned up in a small cage with no exercise and limited human interaction. We all may vary on how we evaluate that, and of course, some people would think it doesn't matter.

But it's clear that if you start with an opinion that dogs are merely objects for amusement, then it's a short jump to being in-humane to dogs.

With fish, we are just more likely to see people who regard them as merely animated toys. The hobby thankfully has a large amount of serious members who do not share that view.

Some actually care for their fish (emotionally), and some with a bit less care, actually care about handling them nonetheless in a serious and successful way. They may really want 2 particular fish, but choose but one because together there will be death.

Bravo.

One person who wants to be good at fish keeping and another who cares about the fish he is keeping can ultimately reach the same decision, but from a different perspective. I have seen some people start threads and I can tell some are one or the other. One starts "Hi, I really like Fire EEls (etc.). How can I keep this fish and what do I need to do?" or "What fish can I put in a tank this size that will go together?"

I like the insight about over stocking as hoarding. I've never heard that and it's remarkably astute.