Undergravel filters (Need advice and your thoughts)

[CHOMPERS]

So explain the magical transformation that occurs between poop, food, etc. falling into the gravel and (the air or powerheads) sucking it under the under gravel plate....that results in the stuff being converted into something that is totally non-organic (i.e. doesn't contribute to the nitrogen cycle).

The stuff that gets sucked under the plate is the stuff that I clean off the bottom of my bare bottom tanks...and definitely is organic waste.

The stuff on the bottom of your bare bottom tanks is raw poo. What is under the UGF plates has had a chance to break down.

Not all organic compounds are nitrogen based. Only nitrogen compounds go through the nitrogen cycle to form nitrates. Carbon compounds and calcium based compounds do not go through the nitrogen cycle and they do not form nitrates. Most carbon compounds end up as dissolved organics and are what turns the water a yellowish tint in neglected tanks. They are removed with water changes. Calcium products are considered insoluble but will dissolve slowly as long as they have not reached their saturation limit.

 

[dogofwar]

"The stuff on the bottom of your bare bottom tanks is raw poo. What is under the UGF plates has had a chance to break down"

I don't buy that being sucked through an inch of gravel and a plastic plate converts raw poo into something that doesn't contribute to the bioload of a tank.

Believe me, I used UGFs for most of the 80's (before I knew better). I've sucked enough crud from under them to know that it's not "inert".

There are much better filters out there, especially for messy fish.

 

[CHOMPERS]

For the record guys, the term 'organic' applies to any element or compound that is the product of an orgainsm or goes through one during respiration. (That doesn't mean that if a fish eats a rock and poops it out that the rock becomes organic.) The organic compounds remain 'organic' even until they can no longer be broken down. I believe this is what Bderick67 meant by saying it was 'mineralized'.

 

[dogofwar]

Call it what you wish: I'm referring to fish poop, pieces of uneaten fish food, and the other stuff that contribute ammonia to a tank.

If the stuff under an undergravel filter plate doesn't contribute to the bioload of a tank, would the stuff on the back side of a HOB filter pad be similarly "inert"? Or does gravel and plastic plate "break down" poop better than a similar depth of filter fluff, carbon, and plastic frame?

Running an UGF (and not cleaning under it) is like running a HOB filter and never cleaning / replacing the pads....which - in my experience - is a PITA.

 

[hitemup4u]

I would have to agree with everyone saying to throw the UGF's out the window. Like others have said it causes to much mess in the tank and the only way I would ever use one again would be as a RUGF

 

[bitteraspects]

if you already bought the filter, i would suggest a PH with reverse flow function, or a submersable pump, and turn your ugf into a sort of UGJ system.

 

[CichlidAddict]

The best use for an UGF would be to melt it down and make it into a canister filter.

 

[CHOMPERS]

Believe me, I used UGFs for most of the 80's (before I knew better).

Just because you were using them before most people on MFK were born doesn't mean that you can use it as a Trump Card. I used them back in the 70's.

I don't buy that being sucked through an inch of gravel and a plastic plate converts raw poo into something that doesn't contribute to the bioload of a tank.

Nobody said that it didn't. You are approaching this with a very closed mind.

I've sucked enough crud from under them to know that it's not "inert".

That's not an honest statement. Sucking crud does not give you the ability to tell if something is inert, not inert, or any combination in between. And we both know you didn't have it analyzed so you can't say what it is or isn't. The younger members with much less life experience than you are approaching this debate with open minds (and are learning new things). They can see that the stuff under the plates isn't the same as what just came out of a fish. Logic says that it isn't.

Don't be so intent on winning the "argument". It isn't about winning or losing. It is about learning and passing our knowlege on to the younger and newer members. It is our responsibility to be as accurate as possible and to give good information, not what ever will 'win' the debate.

 

[dogofwar]

Another good use for the plates is as drip trays for trickle filters

The best use for an UGF would be to melt it down and make it into a canister filter.

I'm extremely open minded when it comes to trying new things and re-examining old ones. I even tried the reverse powerheads / UGF when they first came out. I use plenty of (old school) box and sponge filters (and change the fluff on the boxes and squeeze out the sponges regularly).

I'm yet to be convinced, though, that some great innovation has occurred in UGF technology since the late '80s / early 90s...to make them better than alternatives (especially for messy fish). My advice to people that are new to fishkeeping is to NOT GET an UGF.

I guess my only "proof" that the sludge from under UGF plates is rich in organics is that I used to use it for my flowers in place of fertlizer.

Anyone willing to win the argument of whether the stuff under the UGF plate is more like poop or whether it's "inert" by drinking a glass of it?

 

[T1KARMANN]

mmmm interesting read but i still think UGF are a thing of the past things have moved on a long ways since the days they were popular

just out of interest if the gravel has such great filtering property's does that mean a tank with substrate has a much better surface area to support bacteria than a bare bottom tank