What are you feeding YOUR fish?!
- Thread starter xEchOx
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Im off today, but I think all sides have made their cases and made their peace with their decisions/opinions
Right, but every "the sky is falling" type before you has, which is why you have even read about anything regarding this preservative. You amigo are at the end of a long line of crusaders that came before you (this debate has been ongoing since the 1990's), which is why I stated at the beginning of this discussion that I was very well versed on this subject.
You didn't use the term carcinogen, but you were quick to point out that it was a toxin, even going so far as to post links to a study where amounts in the 5,000 ppm range were used, as though that data would somehow support your personal view about the levels used in fish food.
You then attempt to compare it to humans, and the safety factors used (70 years, and a 100x safety factor) when assessing this substance for human consumption, and then somehow think that one can simply extrapolate that data into what's safe for aquatic organisms, such as finfish? Whoa .......
As stated previously, which for some unknown reason you still seem to fail to grasp, that feed trial involved 150 ppm, data which in no way correlates with the actual inclusion rate of any tropical fish food on the market. (that I am aware of) And as previously mentioned, more than once now, the "warning" message that you are sending out about this preservative, could also be said about almost every raw ingredient found in tropical fish food, including many of the vitamins, as NO study exists to validate or dispute most of the concerns regarding the inclusion rate of any raw ingredient used in fish food.
Are we there yet?
You seem to ignore the obvious, and only want to focus on the shoulda/coulda/woulda.
If you don't want to accept the fact that almost everything that we feed our fish can potentially become toxic, and even lethal, at high enough levels, then don't, but at the same time don't cry wolf & post links to studies that in absolutely no way prove anything about the toxicity of this substance in tropical fish food, and expect me to follow you to the promised land like some no brain sheep.
My motive is exactly the same as it's been for the past 30 yrs or more, to help educate those in an area of this hobby that I have always been very passionate about. My personal mantra has always been "The population will not benefit from the status quo" so it's rather ironic that you would attempt to tell me that my desire is to shove the status quo down anyones throat. That's funny.
The status quo in this case is on your side, with the other fanatics that lacking any type of concrete data that supported their view used the same kind of BS misinformation that you are. That is now the real status quo, and you seem to have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.
Sorry, but misinformation & bogus data doesn't help anyone in this hobby. I have no problem with those that want to question everything & anything in this the field of nutrition, health, and well being, and in that regards I am the ORIGINAL sceptic. All I ask is that it's done in a responsible manner, which in regards to this subject IMO this has not been the case.
As stated previously; I can cite numerous independent studies performed by accredited laboratories that will show that vitamins A, D, and E can also cause cancer, and can be deadly toxic to dogs, cats, rats, and even fish, when inappropriate levels are fed to these animals.
In your opinion it's not the same, yet some of those synthetic vitamins listed above can and are used as preservatives in animal feed. (as in tocopherols) Helpful at lower doses, potentially harmful at higher doses. Not the same? Really?
FYI - typically when fish die of bloat, liver and/or kidney failure is quite common, as this is caused when the flagellates (the most common being spironucleus vortens) involved with this disease become systemic, and travel into the bloodstream, eventually settling into internal organs.
You ask, who takes such fish to the vet - over the past 50+ years, umm, probably millions of people, from professionals that have their own in-house labs at public aquariums, to serious breeders/hobbyists who have spent thousands of $$$$ on the purchase of their pet arowana, champion show koi, or rare marine specimen. This of course is not to mention how many countless numbers of fish are sacrificed by the manufacturers themselves while performing their own in-house studies on lipid levels, etc. Then factor in those fish that have been hand raised on this food, and 15-20+ years are still going strong, is that too not an ongoing long term feed trial?
In your perfect world all fish food would be holistic, or perhaps certified 100% organic, but those terms don't exist in the fish food world, and they never will as no consumer is going to be willing to pay the kind of premium prices involved for that kind of tropical fish food. Also, by definition Holistic food is unprocessed, sans any form of additives, or any artificial enrichment or fortification. Organic is going to be rather difficult as well, as 100% of the ingredients must be organically produced, so that rules out synthetic vitamins & minerals.
This isn't the type of fish food that is going to be attractive to a commercial manufacturer, for a number of reasons.
Not that I don't agree that it would be nice to live in that perfect world, and that the safer & more natural a product is the better for all concerned - I totally agree with that sentiment. In that regards, we don't differ at all, Kmuda.
But the reality is this isn't a perfect world, and some of the things that you have brought up seem so damn simplistic from a consumers point of view, when from someone who is actually laying it all out on the line to compete in such a fierce market, and produce these pet food products, it's anything but simplistic.
As an example, you would like every manufacturer to inform everyone as to what preservatives are found in their food, and at what level. Seems simple enough, until you factor in that not all of these raw ingredients (not just fish meal) are necessarily the same from one batch to the next. Levels can change from the source, during the season -due to higher fat levels in the fish, and sometimes sources change from time to time. It's for this exact reason that some fish food manufacturers simply list "fish meal" on their ingredient list, or "fish oil", as the source & type of those ingredients can change depending on seasonal prices, seasonal availability, etc-etc. It's not the same as stating the exact amount of vitamin c found in each container of food, some parameters will not be constant all of the time, and with this substance it would fall into that area. And of course, even IF a manufacturer was to state that their food contained a mere 10 ppm, you'd then have people asking for a (long term, as in decades probably) study showing that this quantity was safe for ALL species of finfish. That's exactly how these things go.
I took a few minutes (2 or 3) and found the following link, which is a classic example of why I use the term fanatics, and how biased many of these pet health professionals can be when discussing this subject.
Pet Food Ingredients Revealed!
http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_pet_food_ingredients_8.html
Yes siree, an actual bonafide Dr. N.D., Ph.D. Impressive, right?
Look what the good Dr. has to say ........
salt ....... Used to cover up rancid meat and fat.
fish oil .......Non-descriptive type of fish can include rancid source of "throw away" catches.
iron oxide ....... Can be cultivated from rust!
poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols) ........... Non-descriptive, can be any foul, often rancid prior to preserving with Vitamin E (gimmicky, to cover poor quality fat used).
ethoxyquin ....... (a preservative) The most carcinogenic preservative.
and last but not least from the select few that I listed .........
water ......... Used as non-nutritive filler in food. UGH!
Then the "hidden agenda" part that I mentioned previously, which in this case certainly isn't hidden except from the very slowest of slow. lol
See how that works? And trust me, there are scores of vets & other health professionals that would attempt to tell you that your water is toxic, and that you should filter all of your pets drinking water through their water purifying filter that only costs $499.99, with monthly prefilter replacemets at a mere $49.99.
Lots of hidden agendas in this industry, and lots of people that will blow smoke up your skirt if you let them.
And on that note, I'm now going to press "3".
Thanks RD, for convincing me that the industry will never do better. Not only that, it's impossible for them to do better.
Hmmm... I wonder, with all of that against them, how could the dog food industry have possibly done it?
Perhaps all of those tree hugging fanatical morons that were asking for something better....... actually resulted in something better.
I pressed 3 a long time ago, but my phone did not work.
Hmmm... I wonder, with all of that against them, how could the dog food industry have possibly done it?
Perhaps all of those tree hugging fanatical morons that were asking for something better....... actually resulted in something better.
I pressed 3 a long time ago, but my phone did not work.
Kmuda ....... the only one stating that this needs any form of tweaking in commercial fish food, is you, and a handful of other loosely based and unorganized fanatics. lol
With the tree hugging fanatical morons that owned dogs/cats there were millions on board by the time the frenzy had peaked.
With the tree hugging fanatical morons that owned dogs/cats there were millions on board by the time the frenzy had peaked.
Don't kid yourself RD, you may cow people into not replying in this thread with your overbearing argumentative tactics but they read it. I am far from alone. Based upon my Inbox there are many out there who believe not only that improvements can be made but that they should be made. Fact of the matter is NLS and other companies that utilize ethoxyquin and other artificial preservatives are loosing some percentage of market share to companies that are not utilizing artificial preservatives, otherwise they would not feel the need to post inaccurate counter arguments on their web sites.
Hopefully people are inspired to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.
Yes, and it resulted in better products.
Hopefully people are inspired to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.
With the tree hugging fanatical morons that owned dogs/cats there were millions on board by the time the frenzy had peaked.
Yes, and it resulted in better products.
I own a cat, a horse, fish, and have owned just about every "standard" pet out there includeing dogs, reptiles, amphibians, small animals, birds... ect ect.. and worked in the indusrty for over half my life Includeing 2 large chains and a few private shops ( one specialized in exotic reptiles)... calling people fanatical tree hugging morons for wanting their pets to eat as well as they do ( which in the US we don't eat very well to begin with...) Is a pretty biased thing for you to say. It's the people that are OKAY with enough... MFK wouldn't be here if people where OK with enough for their pet fish. The fish industry ime is one of the worst as far as life/death rates. Fish are expendable.. they aren't cute and fuzzy.. they don't fetch our shoes.. and they don't purr... But to the vast majority of the people here Striving for a better life for their pets is why they are here. Maybe you lost sight of that in this debate.. usually you don't lose your cool RD. But this forum isn't just a bunch of people with 10 gallon tanks replacing fish every few weeks or even monthes ( Or at least they are here and trying to learn how to better care for their pets instead of haveing to replace them)
There is a bunch of crap out there in the industry as you say willing and waiting to blow smoke up peoples butts and take their money... But the nice thing about this site.. is people aren't paid to give advise and sell you crap you don't need. people are here to get honest informative information and not be "Told" they should or should not do one thing or another, but talk to other people and share their experiances owning all the crazy and amazing fish out there.
I don't know what you get out of this Site RD, But i'm here to learn, and challenge the old precepts, and either confirm or deny them. I'm here to make the life of my fishes better.. because I care about them like those fanatics care about their dogs. Granted there are true crazys out there just looking for attention ect.. and just like around here.. they come and go and drift off soon enough. Most the fish people here I've come to know over the past few years are "crazy cat ladies" in their own rights.
There is a bunch of crap out there in the industry as you say willing and waiting to blow smoke up peoples butts and take their money... But the nice thing about this site.. is people aren't paid to give advise and sell you crap you don't need. people are here to get honest informative information and not be "Told" they should or should not do one thing or another, but talk to other people and share their experiances owning all the crazy and amazing fish out there.
I don't know what you get out of this Site RD, But i'm here to learn, and challenge the old precepts, and either confirm or deny them. I'm here to make the life of my fishes better.. because I care about them like those fanatics care about their dogs. Granted there are true crazys out there just looking for attention ect.. and just like around here.. they come and go and drift off soon enough. Most the fish people here I've come to know over the past few years are "crazy cat ladies" in their own rights.
I think that some people are reading a wee bit more into my comments than what is there.
As previously stated;
Is that clear enough, Kmuda, Monster Minis, and anyone else that may join in down the road? You want honest information, Monstermini, that's exactly what I am giving you.
I'm all for improvement in this industry, and I am all for the safest & best feed for my fish/dogs/cats possible, but I am also a realist, a self thinker, and someone who has seen this industry from more than just the simple view of a consumer.
And Monsterminis, just so this is crystal clear for you -I didn't call anyone a fanatical tree hugging moron for wanting their pets to eat as well as they do - I called them that for acting like fanatical idiots, just as I would anyone acting as such, whether they own pets, or not.
Sorry, but I'm not one of those who will be led down the garden path by people such as the vet posted in the previous comment, who after denouncing every raw ingredient known to mankind, including water, finishes the page off with a link to where everyone can purchase her "holistic" pet food.
That's one of the main problems with the anti-ethoxyquin crowd, that and not seeming to be able to get their facts straight. Kmuda did the exact same thing that I have been seeing for years, came in here with some links to studies, obviously without ever fully reading &/or understanding them, and then used those studies to promote his personal opinion (because that's all it is) that any amount could cause negative health issues in fish. No problem, show me something that actually supports this view, something that clearly demonstrates that any amount of this substance can cause liver/kidney issues in fish, and I'll become your #1 supporter.
That's exactly why I stated earlier that I have no problem with those that want to question everything & anything in this the field of nutrition, health, and well being, and all that I ask is that it's done in a responsible manner, which in regards to this subject IMO this has not been the case. If you are going to enter a crowded room & shout FIRE, you damn well better make certain that there actually is a fire, or expect to take a little heat from someone like myself.
Now I am somehow "cowing" people into not responding in this topic?
Have I made people cry, too?
Gee, sorry.
As previously stated;
Is that clear enough, Kmuda, Monster Minis, and anyone else that may join in down the road? You want honest information, Monstermini, that's exactly what I am giving you.
I'm all for improvement in this industry, and I am all for the safest & best feed for my fish/dogs/cats possible, but I am also a realist, a self thinker, and someone who has seen this industry from more than just the simple view of a consumer.
And Monsterminis, just so this is crystal clear for you -I didn't call anyone a fanatical tree hugging moron for wanting their pets to eat as well as they do - I called them that for acting like fanatical idiots, just as I would anyone acting as such, whether they own pets, or not.
Sorry, but I'm not one of those who will be led down the garden path by people such as the vet posted in the previous comment, who after denouncing every raw ingredient known to mankind, including water, finishes the page off with a link to where everyone can purchase her "holistic" pet food.
That's one of the main problems with the anti-ethoxyquin crowd, that and not seeming to be able to get their facts straight. Kmuda did the exact same thing that I have been seeing for years, came in here with some links to studies, obviously without ever fully reading &/or understanding them, and then used those studies to promote his personal opinion (because that's all it is) that any amount could cause negative health issues in fish. No problem, show me something that actually supports this view, something that clearly demonstrates that any amount of this substance can cause liver/kidney issues in fish, and I'll become your #1 supporter.
That's exactly why I stated earlier that I have no problem with those that want to question everything & anything in this the field of nutrition, health, and well being, and all that I ask is that it's done in a responsible manner, which in regards to this subject IMO this has not been the case. If you are going to enter a crowded room & shout FIRE, you damn well better make certain that there actually is a fire, or expect to take a little heat from someone like myself.
Now I am somehow "cowing" people into not responding in this topic?
Have I made people cry, too?
Gee, sorry.
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