When is your ray active?

[Gr8KarmaSF]

T1, I think you are misunderstanding.

^ Agreed ^

T1 is talking about adpatation/design vs. instinct

JD is talking about conscience effort vs. instinct

Gr8KarmaSF is trying to talk about whether or not substrate effects a rays activity level...lol

 

[is300zx]

I don't keep rays since they're illegal here but I think they would know if there was substrate or not. The sensation alone of substrate covering their body would let them know. They may not know it cognitively like we do but they would know even in terms of instinct.

 

[jdepasqu2]

Gr8KarmaSF...., I didnt necessarily mean to turn off your moon light during the day. I meant that i didnt use any type of lights during the day other than maybe a flourecent grow light that was away from the tank.... I noticed that in general rays dont like intense light. I think it makes them feel vulnerable and out in the "open". But you probably already know this......

 

[Justin94565]

Because they dont hide.

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

Gr8KarmaSF...., I didnt necessarily mean to turn off your moon light during the day. I meant that i didnt use any type of lights during the day other than maybe a flourecent grow light that was away from the tank.... I noticed that in general rays dont like intense light. I think it makes them feel vulnerable and out in the "open". But you probably already know this......

In the daytime I have no lights on, in the evening I usually have my regular lights on, tonight I will only keep my moonlight on (regular lights off) and see if theres any difference.

 

[jdepasqu2]

In the daytime I have no lights on, in the evening I usually have my regular lights on, tonight I will only keep my moonlight on (regular lights off) and see if theres any difference.

good luck..., hope it works.... It should, that coupled with their desire to eat should make them NUTZ...............!!

 

[unknownuza13]

Good point, but why did my rays on bare bottom exhibit the same behavior? They outgrew it but I assumed it was because they just became comfortable with their surroundings.

Like I said I just think rays and most animals in general rely on instictive reactions rather then cognitive thought. I just dont see a fish being smart enough to to think, "hey there is sand, I will flip my disk to stir the sand up and when it settles it will settle on top of me to conceal my presence."

I had motoros in a tank with sand substrate who covered themselves from time to time. My current ray in barebottom has never attempted it once or at least not that I have ever seen. He still blows at the bottom but never flaps in an attempt to cover himself. It would be interesting to add sand to the tank now and see if he recognizes the sand being there and attempts to cover up. My guess would be no because I think they only cover up when they feel uncomfortable and he is very comfortable in his surroundings. I personally think it is cognitive thought and not relying on instinct. I know I have read somewhere about rays being more advanced than your normal fish but not certain where they fall on the intelligence scale.

well i have had new born pups cover themselfs in substate if it wasnt a natural thing for rays to do them how would they know how to to that within 15mins of birth

birds flap their wings they fly rays flap they wings they cover themself in substate its what both animals were designed for

look at the rays mouth it designed to push its way into substrate it wasnt designed to blow water on a flat surface it was designed to blow water into substrate

everything about a ray tells us they are designed to live in substrate its a bit cruel to not give it to them IMO

Based on your first comment I don't believe you understand what Gr8 was getting at. What is it about a ray's mouth that makes it designed to blow into substrate? Location on the body? Mine seems very content blowing into a clean substrate free bottom. In the wild they constantly sift through the substrate to find food but when we provide them a daily high quality diet I see little need for them to do this and they seem to adapt quite well. I do not agree that it is cruel for them to live in bare bottom tanks. Where then would it stop? Is it cruel to keep them in boxes with limited swimming room for us to enjoy? I believe it to be very cruel when uneducated people buy rays without doing research and end up killing it in a few days. Most people who are doing barebottom have a research outlet like MFK or else they would never know about barebottom. They certainly would never tell you to do that at a petstore or petsmart.

Two of the best stingray breeders I know of David Webber and Mike Miranda (csx) both keep or kept in the past their rays in bare bottom tanks and all of their rays are top notch.

 

[T1KARMANN]

if you look at a ray when it blows into the substrate it can turn its mouth nearly inside out to push it into the substrate

you can keep a bird in a cage for life and it will live if you let it out it still will be able to fly

i would say a ray on bare bottom tank would be more active as it stressed looking for a safe place to hide

my point hear is a ray that is kept on substate will be much happyer than a ray on bare bottom mainly because it has cover in any part of the tank it just needs to flap its wings and its safe

but a ray in a bare tank if it gets scared were does it go it flaps all over the tank looking for a place to hide

 

[jdepasqu2]

I had motoros in a tank with sand substrate who covered themselves from time to time. My current ray in barebottom has never attempted it once or at least not that I have ever seen. He still blows at the bottom but never flaps in an attempt to cover himself. It would be interesting to add sand to the tank now and see if he recognizes the sand being there and attempts to cover up. My guess would be no because I think they only cover up when they feel uncomfortable and he is very comfortable in his surroundings. I personally think it is cognitive thought and not relying on instinct. I know I have read somewhere about rays being more advanced than your normal fish but not certain where they fall on the intelligence scale.




Based on your first comment I don't believe you understand what Gr8 was getting at. What is it about a ray's mouth that makes it designed to blow into substrate? Location on the body? Mine seems very content blowing into a clean substrate free bottom. In the wild they constantly sift through the substrate to find food but when we provide them a daily high quality diet I see little need for them to do this and they seem to adapt quite well. I do not agree that it is cruel for them to live in bare bottom tanks. Where then would it stop? Is it cruel to keep them in boxes with limited swimming room for us to enjoy? I believe it to be very cruel when uneducated people buy rays without doing research and end up killing it in a few days. Most people who are doing barebottom have a research outlet like MFK or else they would never know about barebottom. They certainly would never tell you to do that at a petstore or petsmart.

Two of the best stingray breeders I know of David Webber and Mike Miranda (csx) both keep or kept in the past their rays in bare bottom tanks and all of their rays are top notch.

We are not saying that it is cruel...., but really just unnatural and unbenefital. Other than for ease of care/maintenance what is the point in keeping a bare bottom tank?? I kinda come from the thinking that as fish keepers we are trying to recreate a 8' x 4' 2' cube of the wild (or what ever size your aquarium is). Atleast thats what I strive to do. I have almost as much fun and desire to recreate the look and feel of nature as i do actually keeping any certain type of fish. But thats just me. Some people just care about a fish and that is it. But I must say that a well done tank with all the "fixins" looks way better than a bare tank.... And I do believe that a substrate allows the ray to be more comfortable and therefore more able to be healthy....., stress kills.... This is especially the case with wild caught rays.... just my 2cents.........

 

[csx4236]

I had motoros in a tank with sand substrate who covered themselves from time to time. My current ray in barebottom has never attempted it once or at least not that I have ever seen. He still blows at the bottom but never flaps in an attempt to cover himself. It would be interesting to add sand to the tank now and see if he recognizes the sand being there and attempts to cover up. My guess would be no because I think they only cover up when they feel uncomfortable and he is very comfortable in his surroundings. I personally think it is cognitive thought and not relying on instinct. I know I have read somewhere about rays being more advanced than your normal fish but not certain where they fall on the intelligence scale.


I agree with this as well, Now that all my rays are comfortable and accustomed to being in bare bottom tanks I do not see them attempting to bury themselves anymore. The only rays I own that attempt to do this are my pearls, They have been in my tanks for just about two years and they still tend to be quite nervous and will dart around the tank and attempt to bury themselves even thou there is no substrate in the tanks and never was. These pearls are the only ones that exhibit this behavior when spooked. My leo,henlei, p14 and motoro do not exhibit this type of behavior anymore. I do not agree with a ray being happier in a tank with substrate or stressed out in a bare bottom tank at all. There are plenty of breeders in asia and thru out the world breeding there rays in bare bottom tanks with much success, I think they grow to be use to any type of tank and adapt to there surroundings if not would they be breeding in bare bottom tanks?