Where do you get your breeders?

[peathenster]

FishingOut will need to answer this from his perspective. From my perspective - it is a broken gene or genes - that is the actual DNA gets messed up and it causes changes beyond just normal natural variation as seen in wild populations of fish.

You don't have to explain it to me I asked because I didn't think FishingOut had a clear understanding of the concept.

I cannot agree with your interpretation either. Any heritable change in genetic information relative to a reference (often called wild type) can be broadly defined as a mutation. Most mutations involve DNA sequence changes. Some don't, but are conceptually similar. In most cases they happen randomly at a very low frequency.

"Normal natural variations", as you put it, are actually the consequences of mutations. In other words, no mutation, no variation (ignoring environmental factors here).

 

[FishingOut]

Genetic mutations are the reason there are 1000's of different cichlids today. A mutation to me is when there is altered dna passed to the offspring. I guess inbreeding depression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression) is what im afraid of.
About the NormalJD's, Get 5 from a respectable breeder and 5 from petsmart/petco. At 2-3 inch you can spot inbreeding. Blotchy patterns, depressed and hidden, lack of pearl. Jd's are one of the most beautiful fish in the hobby, But the genepool is so outta wack from always breeding them.
I know some mutations are optically pleasing, This is not within the best health for the fish. For example, many hybrids are sterile. This is probably a program in the fish restricting it beings its own mutant species.
* The reason for my question is i want to breed my own feeders and also sell or give some away. Breeding is new to me, and i just wanted to see what measures MFKers took to avoid this. thanks guys

 

[FishingOut]

This is a good inbreeding read.
http://meeg-toomuchinformation.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html
They also touch on the 2 toed tribe of inbreds over in zimbabwe. interesting sheet.

 

[GhostShrimpMan]

Was a good Article

 

[importracer]

I have never tried breeding but have been doing alot of research. I think i will start simple. My question is how do you select your breeding fish? Do you order 6 fish from rapps and wait for a pair? Wont this cause inbreeding? If i wanted to start breeding convicts would i have to hit up 6 different stores so the fish arnt related? If i take and adult male and an adult female of the same species and put them in a tank what are the chances they breed? Thanks MFK

As far as Convicts go, they breed like rabbits..........Do not worry about inbreeding cons, you will end up using the fry as feeders for the rest of the predators..........If you are focus on selective breeding cons, then order from http://tangledupincichlids.com..........Purchase the Hondurian Red Point species....."HRP" are the original Coonvict cichlid..........Depending on te tannk size, you will begin with 6-10 to get a pair any cichlid.......With convicts though, 99% of just purchasing one male and one female, they bred within two weeks..........Your fish question asks, how do you select what type of fish to breed, easy........The fish you breed must satisfy you and/or the fishroom itself..Breeding cons saves a lot of stress when deciding to feed feeders to your predators.......On the other hand, breeding fish to sell and trade with others keeps the hobby strong.......

 

[peathenster]

Inbreeding is scientificly known to mutate genepools. Never in good ways either.

A mutation to me is when there is altered dna passed to the offspring.

"Mutation" refers to the change itself, regardless of whether it's passed to the next generation.

There is no evidence whatsoever and mechanistically impossible that inbreeding would "mutate genepools", let alone "scientificly known".

About the NormalJD's, Get 5 from a respectable breeder and 5 from petsmart/petco. At 2-3 inch you can spot inbreeding. Blotchy patterns, depressed and hidden, lack of pearl. Jd's are one of the most beautiful fish in the hobby, But the genepool is so outta wack from always breeding them.

Once again, have you (or do you know anybody) actually done this and made the observation? I'm not arguing "whether" this is true. I'm arguing "how" you would even know.


Mutations happen more or less randomly, and accumulate in the population. Most are neutral and of no consequence - you won't even know they are there unless you sequence the DNA. Some are deleterious when present as a single copy (dominant), which are usually very quickly removed from the population because individuals carrying these dominant mutations can't compete with "normal" individuals, and are eventually eliminated (so are the dominant mutations). Recessive mutations (must be present with two copies, or homozygous, for the individual to exhibit phenotypic defects) can be maintained in the population for very long periods of time (although usually at low frequency), because individuals heterozygous for these mutations (one mutant copy and one wild type copy of the gene) are phenotypically normal and not subject to natural selection.

The difference between a cross between two "unrelated" individuals (so to speak, as they are all related somehow) and two siblings is that the probability that both parents carry a mutant copy of the same gene is different.

Assuming a given mutation is present in 0.1% (one in a thousand) of the individuals in a wild population. When FISH A already carries the mutation, the probability that an unrelated mate would carry the same mutation is 0.1%. In other words, 99.9% of the time the progenies would be phenotypically normal (although half of them would also carry one copy of the mutant gene). However, the probability that the siblings of FISH A carrying the same mutation is at least 50% (igoreing X- or Y-linked mutations here), and therefore if you cross FISH A with a sibling, 50% of the time you will get some homozygous mutant fish.

The discussion above is based on the presence of one single mutation. In reality there are thousands of mutations "drifting" in the population, and there is a very good chance that two siblings both carry the same mutation(s) in certain gene(s), and therefore 1/4 of the progenies would be homozygous mutant for something. Simply put, by crossing siblings you create an artificial genetic bottle neck and serevely reduce the effective population size.

I hope this makes sense....

 

[beattyfish]

Great statement

 

[dogofwar]

What people fail to incorporate in the equation is that some fish
in the hobby all come from a single collection from a single person...so getting fish from seperate vendors is really pointless. The key is to cull or not breed from individuals with obvious defects - not perfect but I also agree that many folks overemphasize the importance of a generation or two of inbreeding.

Getting fish from different sources also greatly increases the chances that the stock has been mis-labeled or otherwise isn't exactly what's expected...

Matt

 

[peathenster]

The key is to cull or not breed from individuals with obvious defects

Yes! To do what natural selection is supposed to do.

 

[FishingOut]

Culling is almost playing god to an extent. Natural selection is soppose to do this, but whos to say all the fish you just created arnt complete tards. Im sure everybody has had a cichlid that was "mentally unstable" at some point or another.
Sry peath, Alot of that was uncomprehendable but what im getting from it is your saying the same thing i am. Genetic deformities happen much much more frequently in inbreeding fish. There are no phycotherapists for fish so i guess we wont know until its too late and the genepools have gone to hell and mutations become much more common. Show fish are a completly different topic of discussion because that doesnt effect the integrity of a species natural dna.