Where does nitrifying bacteria come from?

[Toby_H]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrosomonas

While "bacteria" are "everywhere"... the Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria we need in our aquariums are considered "rare" (for bacteria that is)...

They are in a lot of places, but only those with enough ammonia to sustain them.

My best guess would be that the ones that drift into our aquariums come from soil which has plants in it... as this is a place where they would cultivate. If this is true, then someone with houseplants would have a small advantage over someone without house plants at getting the initial process of cycling started... (in a tank that was not seeded).

 

[swede]

bacteria are every where
they're here
they're there
they're even in your hair.

theres probably already bacteria in the empty tank. it probably in the gravel, its probably on your hands. they can even reproduce by spores so its probably in the air.

yes but the bacteria that gives you strep throat is not going to help a bioload and will not help any levels of ammonia. If it were that easy we would all just sneeze in our tanks

 

[swede]

OK, so taking the fact that we need to provide BB with ammonia for it to feed, and all bacteria multiply when conditions are optimal to their design..... so since we believe that soil has a helping hand in getting this to our tanks and filtration and what not, what if an individual were to soak some biomedia in ammonia. Then, stick it in a media bag and put it in some soil and water it. I'm curious if after a couple days, you would have enough BB bacteria to consider the tank cycled. The thing that frustrates me is that there is no test that is readily available to see how much BB there is. The only real way to tell it is there is the lack of toxic ammonia, nitrite and the presence of some nitrates. I think if we could come up with this test, we could greatly improve on effective ways to bear the needs of bioloads in all kinds of tanks. less gimmick, more scientific proof

 

[sostoudt]

trust me guys bacteria is everywhere. simply leaving a new tank to sit for 48 hrs will give it time to get a seed population of nitrifying bacteria. how do you think people cycled tanks before bacteria supplements? by being patient.

theres probably nitrifying bacteria in your bathroom right now feeding on microscopic amounts of urine that accumluate with regular use.

i would even bet there is bacteria that comes in on the fish you add to the tank.

there is 10 times more bacteria in your body then human cells.
ive heard theres more bacteria in your mouth then people in the world.
edit: and yes i know that isnt likely nitrifying bacteria but the point is rare for bacteria isnt very rare, so many animals and decomposers produce ammonia for it not to be near you or right out side its very improbable

 

[sostoudt]

soaking in large amount of ammonia would likely kill the bacteria.

 

[swede]

soaking in large amount of ammonia would likely kill the bacteria.

before the media is used it wouldn't kill anything

my point is, put the food source of ammonia right onto the biomedia fresh out of the package. I don't use bacteria in a bottle BC it doesn't work. My whole point would be to test out what the optimal conditions are for the bacteria so that in established tanks, you can better handle the bioload. Nitrifying bacteria is the single most important factor to our water if you really think about it. its the only thing that makes our water fit for keeping fish in, and it is greatly misunderstood. All I am saying is that if we can better understand this bacteria and figure out how it works and where it comes from, I think all tanks (even cycled ones) would benefit.

 

[sostoudt]

its admirable goal and i encourage you to pursue it.
im pretty sure there are different strains of bacteria that convert ammonia, so they would most likely be hard to identify with out a microscope. each strain probably has different ideal environments.
in general bringing water to 5 ppm is supposed to quickly grow bacteria over 10 ppm the bacteria will die.

sorry if i didnt explain better more then likely dipping the biomedia in ammonia will slow down the cycling process depending on how long it takes the ammonia to wash away. as mention above concentrated amounts of ammonia kill bacteria. theres very little reason to dip the media instead of adding ammonia to the tank to achieve 5 ppm


edit: heres a article on ph and nitrifying bacteria http://www.dmww.com/Laboratory/highpHinhibitsnitrifyingbacteria.pdf

 

[sostoudt]

heres better article on a couple species of nitrifying bacteria
http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

btw you will notice none of the Nitrosomonas can form spores, but some of the bacteria supplements come in spore form this means they dont use nitrosomonas in them.

 

[Toby_H]

OK, so taking the fact that we need to provide BB with ammonia for it to feed, and all bacteria multiply when conditions are optimal to their design..... so since we believe that soil has a helping hand in getting this to our tanks and filtration and what not, what if an individual were to soak some biomedia in ammonia. Then, stick it in a media bag and put it in some soil and water it. I'm curious if after a couple days, you would have enough BB bacteria to consider the tank cycled.

I follow your logic… Saturate the media with ammonia (bacteria food) and then put it in an environment that contains bacteria. In theory the bacteria will move into the media to consume the ammonia… Seems logical…

What I think would work best using this approach would be to add a modest amount of ammonia directly to the media and burry it a few inches deep in an active garden or flower bed. Somewhere with lots of berries, fruits, leaves or flowers dropping and rotting would be best. There would already be an active bacterial colony in the soil and it would without a doubt work it’s way into the media to feed on the ammonia supplied.

While I do not think I would consider this “instant cycled”, I do think it would be just as beneficial as adding seeded material from an aquarium.

Less gimmick, more scientific proof

Bravo!!! I feel that the hobby at large is motivated far to much on the “scientific research” shared with us by the manufacturers of the products we buy… and naturally their “science” is going to suggest we need to buy their products…

trust me guys bacteria is everywhere. simply leaving a new tank to sit for 48 hrs will give it time to get a seed population of nitrifying bacteria. how do you think people cycled tanks before bacteria supplements? by being patient.

While I agree… bacteria is everywhere… I’m also reading that Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria are considered rare… I understand rare is still around, but I think it would be misleading to simply say they are everywhere…

While we have countless examples to verify that letting a tank sit with a small concentration of ammonia will eventually “form” Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria… Based on ample personal experience there is a major benefit to seeding a tank with mature media. Using ideas such as Swede was suggesting to “artificially mature” Media is worth putting energy into researching…

there is 10 times more bacteria in your body then human cells.
ive heard theres more bacteria in your mouth then people in the world.
edit: and yes i know that isnt likely nitrifying bacteria but the point is rare for bacteria isnt very rare, so many animals and decomposers produce ammonia for it not to be near you or right out side its very improbable

More bacteria in the body than human cells… that is hard to imagine but not worth arguing…

The most common Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria is Nitrosomonas europaea which when healthy is .7 cubic micrometers… That means a monolithic layer of bacteria 1 square inch is 921.6 Million individual bacterium… and bacteria do not colonize in monolithic layers, they pile up…

So don’t be overwhelmed when you read huge numbers regarding quantities of bacterium… Especially when most are probably disgustingly generalized statements anyway…

All I am saying is that if we can better understand this bacteria and figure out how it works and where it comes from, I think all tanks (even cycled ones) would benefit.

I boldly agree… and I will continue trying to learn more and share what I learn… and I will continue to challenge statements by others who follow what I feel are misdirected myths that conflict with what I am learning… While trying my best to keep an open mind realizing since I’m newly learning vast amounts of information on this topic it is quite possible that I make mistakes along the way…

im pretty sure there are different strains of bacteria that convert ammonia, so they would most likely be hard to identify with out a microscope. each strain probably has different ideal environments.

There are three genus of Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria: Nitrosospira, Nitrosomonas and Nitrosococcus… With Nitrosomonas europaea most likely being the AOB in the majority of our aquariums…

The ideal environment for all of the species in these three Genus’ are exceptionally similar. I read something about one species, possibly one genus, thriving under higher atmospheric conditions, therefore they would be better suited in deeper water…

PS - Random fun fact… Did you know that many bacteria, most if not all of the Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria, can “swim” or otherwise move by the use of a Flagellum…

 

[Noto]

Yup, I'm finding more detail that suggests that ammonia is inorganic, which still doesn't competely make sense in my mind... but that's my problem not ammonia's

"Organic" and "inorganic" are chemical terms that have nothing to do with material origin. Carbon compounds other than simple oxides are organics, everything else is inorganic; ammonia is not a carbon compound and so is inorganic.

The original distinction was made because it was thought that organic compounds could only result from living processes, while inorganic compounds could result from living or nonliving processes. This was disproved with the synthesis of urea back in (if I recall correctly) the early 1800s, but the fact remains that ammonia and other inorganics can be found in the absence of living organisms.

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference here, as nitrogen-feeding bacteria subsist almost entirely on ammonia that is a product of living systems, so their ecology is the same as that of heterotrophs.

I would disagree that nitrogen-feeding bacteria are likely to be more common around plants; plants are in fact competitors for the very nutrients they need, so they are more likely to occur in soil with limited plant life. Like many bacteria they are opportunistic and probably form large populations when food is abundant and then encyst and wait for another windfall; so if you dug up some soil where your dog took a leak a couple days ago, you'd find plenty of these guys actively feeding and dividing. A few days later when the urine had been used up, there would be few active individuals but still plenty of encysted individuals, who would become active again if given moisture and food.