Who has used fish anesthsia?

[mshill90]

Thanks guys. I'll do a thread on it when its done. It'll be a few days before we do this, and I'll try to get a third party over here to take video. Wish me luck. I adore this fish...

I was only able to find clove oil at GNC. If they don't know what it is, tell them it's used on tooth aches. It's an old time recipe.

It's like 7 bucks for a small vial, but it goes a long way. I've had to use it many times for sick koi that weren't going to make it. So make sure you don't over dose.

I normally have them in a container for sedation, and then a hospital tank to recover in after everything is finished.

Good Luck!

 

[Wet Whiskers]

Thanks everyone!

Since I am moving very soon, I think I'm going to invest in some anesthesia as its supposed to be less irritating. I just want to make sure that I get something that has a standard concentration rather than an oil that could vary dramatically. I just don't want any extra risk involved, as this is scary enough for me. I'll get everyone out I can without anesthesia, but my TSN is probably pushing 29" and the ripsaws are beasts now. I'll do the necessary procedure on my hybrid first, and use that experience to help with the move...

 

[mshill90]

Thanks everyone!

Since I am moving very soon, I think I'm going to invest in some anesthesia as its supposed to be less irritating. I just want to make sure that I get something that has a standard concentration rather than an oil that could vary dramatically. I just don't want any extra risk involved, as this is scary enough for me. I'll get everyone out I can without anesthesia, but my TSN is probably pushing 29" and the ripsaws are beasts now. I'll do the necessary procedure on my hybrid first, and use that experience to help with the move...

Clove oil is what most people use... it's safe if you use an eye dropper.

 

[jcardona1]

+1 for clove oil from GNC. used it on my silver aro when performing an eye procedure. 5 drops per gallon and he was out cold in a matter of seconds.

held him in a net in the tank and he was back up in about 10 minutes. didnt stress him out at all. he even ate that same night!!

 

[Wet Whiskers]

sounds like you guys are big fans of clove oil from GNC, and have seen a lot of success with it. I guess I should reconsider...

 

[Wet Whiskers]

Found what I was looking for:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11277197

"Environmental Medicine Consortium, Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, North Carolina State University, Raleigh 27606, USA.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To compare the anesthetic efficacy and physiologic changes associated with exposure to tricaine methanesulfonate and clove oil (100% eugenol). ANIMALS: 15 adult cultured red pacu (Piaractus brachypomus). PROCEDURE: Fish were exposed to each of 6 anesthetic concentrations in a within-subjects complete crossover design. Stages of anesthesia and recovery were measured, and physiologic data were collected before and during anesthesia. RESULTS: Interval to induction was more rapid and recovery more prolonged in fish exposed to eugenol, compared with those exposed to tricaine methanesulfonate. The margin of safety for eugenol was narrow, because at the highest concentration, most fish required resuscitation. Mixed venous-arterial PO2 consistently decreased with anesthesia, while PCO2 consistently increased with anesthesia in all fish regardless of anesthetic agent. The increase in PCO2 was accompanied by a decrease in pH, presumably secondary to respiratory acidosis. Anesthesia was associated with increased blood glucose, potassium, and sodium concentrations as well as Hct and hemoglobin. Fish anesthetized with eugenol were more likely to react to a hypodermic needle puncture than fish anesthetized with tricaine methanesulfonate. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Anesthesia induced with tricaine methanesulfonate or eugenol contributes to hypoxemia, hypercapnia, respiratory acidosis, and hyperglycemia in red pacu. Similar to tricaine methanesulfonate, eugenol appears to be an effective immobilization compound, but eugenol is characterized by more rapid induction, prolonged recovery, and a narrow margin of safety. Care must be taken when using high concentrations of eugenol for induction, because ventilatory failure may occur rapidly. In addition, analgesic properties of eugenol are unknown."

Soooo... For me, tricaine methanesulfonate would probably be a safer way to go. Basically, for a superficial proceedure, a low dose of clove oil is great. However, for a more invassive proceedure, the dose needs to be high. Because the margin for error is smaller with clove oil, you run a greater risk as you induce the fish into the necessary deeper level of unconsciousness. What I intend to do will evoke reaction even if the animal does not seem conscious. The gag reflex is one of the main tests we use to determine when it's okay to start surgery. To knock out reflexes, the level of induction necessary is very deep, and I would be playing within the small margin of error with clove oil. Tricane methanesulfonate with provide me with a safe route in this proceedure, but clove oil would be effective for many things that do not involve deep pain or reflexes.

 

[mshill90]

Found what I was looking for:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11277197

"Environmental Medicine Consortium, Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, North Carolina State University, Raleigh 27606, USA.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To compare the anesthetic efficacy and physiologic changes associated with exposure to tricaine methanesulfonate and clove oil (100% eugenol). ANIMALS: 15 adult cultured red pacu (Piaractus brachypomus). PROCEDURE: Fish were exposed to each of 6 anesthetic concentrations in a within-subjects complete crossover design. Stages of anesthesia and recovery were measured, and physiologic data were collected before and during anesthesia. RESULTS: Interval to induction was more rapid and recovery more prolonged in fish exposed to eugenol, compared with those exposed to tricaine methanesulfonate. The margin of safety for eugenol was narrow, because at the highest concentration, most fish required resuscitation. Mixed venous-arterial PO2 consistently decreased with anesthesia, while PCO2 consistently increased with anesthesia in all fish regardless of anesthetic agent. The increase in PCO2 was accompanied by a decrease in pH, presumably secondary to respiratory acidosis. Anesthesia was associated with increased blood glucose, potassium, and sodium concentrations as well as Hct and hemoglobin. Fish anesthetized with eugenol were more likely to react to a hypodermic needle puncture than fish anesthetized with tricaine methanesulfonate. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Anesthesia induced with tricaine methanesulfonate or eugenol contributes to hypoxemia, hypercapnia, respiratory acidosis, and hyperglycemia in red pacu. Similar to tricaine methanesulfonate, eugenol appears to be an effective immobilization compound, but eugenol is characterized by more rapid induction, prolonged recovery, and a narrow margin of safety. Care must be taken when using high concentrations of eugenol for induction, because ventilatory failure may occur rapidly. In addition, analgesic properties of eugenol are unknown."

Soooo... For me, tricaine methanesulfonate would probably be a safer way to go. Basically, for a superficial proceedure, a low dose of clove oil is great. However, for a more invassive proceedure, the dose needs to be high. Because the margin for error is smaller with clove oil, you run a greater risk as you induce the fish into the necessary deeper level of unconsciousness. What I intend to do will evoke reaction even if the animal does not seem conscious. The gag reflex is one of the main tests we use to determine when it's okay to start surgery. To knock out reflexes, the level of induction necessary is very deep, and I would be playing within the small margin of error with clove oil. Tricane methanesulfonate with provide me with a safe route in this proceedure, but clove oil would be effective for many things that do not involve deep pain or reflexes.

Ok.. then why did you post on here?

I have done surgery on koi who were put under with Clove Oil, and have had no issues at all. I've removed things out of mouths with it, sutured up cuts etc etc...

I personally feel comfortable with using Clove Oil more than Tricane methanesulfonate AKA Finquel.

But yeah... if you were going to look this up, then maybe you should have looked this up BEFORE posting...

That's like asking what color a plum is, and THEN looking it up.. just a waste of time IMO.

Good luck though.

 

[superleggera123]

just had the same issue with my arowana
i suggest bathing him in metro as it worked for me

 

[Wet Whiskers]

Ok.. then why did you post on here?

I have done surgery on koi who were put under with Clove Oil, and have had no issues at all. I've removed things out of mouths with it, sutured up cuts etc etc...

I personally feel comfortable with using Clove Oil more than Tricane methanesulfonate AKA Finquel.

But yeah... if you were going to look this up, then maybe you should have looked this up BEFORE posting...

That's like asking what color a plum is, and THEN looking it up.. just a waste of time IMO.

Good luck though.

I just found that article, and I'm not basing a decision on one article, one opinion, or one experience. I have been asking around, talking with people, and doing a lot of research. I thought this article provided good insight into the use of Clove oil versus a man made anesthesia for future readers. My comments added were an explaination as to why I felt for my proceedure this was a better choice. Clove oil would be my choice for other proceedures. I came to mfkers for their experiences, you guys have been very helpful, including people I have spoken with beyond this thread.

 

[mshill90]

I just found that article, and I'm not basing a decision on one article, one opinion, or one experience. I have been asking around, talking with people, and doing a lot of research. I thought this article provided good insight into the use of Clove oil versus a man made anesthesia for future readers. My comments added were an explaination as to why I felt for my proceedure this was a better choice. Clove oil would be my choice for other proceedures. I came to mfkers for their experiences, you guys have been very helpful, including people I have spoken with beyond this thread.

Well if it's internal parasites, I would do the bath like the one above me suggested. My JD had internal before, and I had done the same thing. It's been so long I don't remember what i used. I think it was the metrocondizole bath. Worked wonders and didn't have to put him under.

You could always try that first.