why are VIP REDS illegal in U.S.?

[Zoodiver]

so if you went to Big Als and bought an aro, then drove to the US, you wouldn't be breaking any CITES laws, now would you?

Yes, because you need a CITES permit to move it across an international border. CITES regulated international trade - hense the Convention of International Trade of Endangered Speices. Can you show me where being captive bred makes is a CITES App II animal? App are listed by species only - you can't be listed in two with the same species.

 

[wizzin]

Yes, because you need a CITES permit to move it across an international border. CITES regulated international trade - hense the Convention of International Trade of Endangered Speices. Can you show me where being captive bred makes is a CITES App II animal? App are listed by species only - you can't be listed in two with the same species.

That's partially not true. CITES App 1 animals bred in captivity at a registered CITES breeding facility are automatically classified as App 2 (CITES Article VII) : http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.shtml#VII

from my earlier post. Read #4

4. Specimens of an animal species included in Appendix I bred in captivity for commercial purposes, or of a plant species included in Appendix I artificially propagated for commercial purposes, shall be deemed to be specimens of species included in Appendix II.

But if we didn't have the ESA, and you got a CITES permit to import the Aro would you still be violating the Lacey Act? No. And you wouldn't be violating CITES.

Currently, yes, if you bought a fish in Canada that was legally imported to Canada, you would be breaking CITES and the ESA, which would trigger Lacey. You can't say that it's CITES or the ESA that triggered Lacey. They both did. I've only seen one case in 2002 where the FWS used Lacey instead of the ESA. While Lacey does apply, it's not it's purpose.

 

[wizzin]

ok. sorry to bring this back up, but... The reason they don't typically prosecute under Lacey is that unless you are actually caught in the act of transporting the fish into the US, or they can track how they got here, which is typically hard I guess, they have a hard time proving that you actually imported them, thus breaking CITES, triggering Lacey. That explains why the 02 case was a Lacey Act case. The guy was caught with 14 aros in his trunk crossing the border into the US. Also in that case, Canada prosecuted him under their endangered species act, so 2 international laws were broken. Most others, were transactions between people within the US, and between the owner and an undercover FWS agent. In those, the ESA was used since the act of importing couldn't be proven.

 

[Zoodiver]

Actually it's very easy to prosecute. If you have a CITES animal and no paperwork for it, you have it illegally. I've been involved with dozens. That is why I keep on commenting to make sure you have legal documents that are required when owning an animal. Even if you bought it legally, transported it legally and the whole nine yards all legally but then can't show a sheet saying so - suddenly you aren't legal.

 

[wizzin]

I think the problem here is that we're both right. Asian aros are illegal in the US because they are listed on the ESA, are a CITES protected species and you could be prosecuted under Lacey for violating either. Like I've said, except for one case, people are prosecuted under the ESA, but because there is one case under Lacey, it's clear that you could be prosecuted under either or both. Agree?

Should there be a sticky here called "why Asian arowanas are illegal in the US"?

 

[ECarbonel]

so what would happen if you were cought with one?

 

[fsirico]

yea but people are probably not going to spend a thousand $ or more and put the fish in a lake when its to big. people buying this kind of fish would be a serious buyer. its not like a kid buying a goldfish. and also they bring fish in that can survive here already that are cheap and a dime a dozen like the oscar and the peacock bass already taking over in lower florida. those are the fish that shoul be banned not a thousand $ fish that your average person cant afford.

 

[luckycharm88]

They are bred in farms by tens of thousands already by this time in Indonesia, malaysia & singapore.

huge business man!