YOUR input on cost of CB Marbles

[DB junkie]

I would like you folks to paticipate in a friendly discussion with me regarding the price of CB Marbles.

I'd like you guys to enlighten me as to what you think a fair price for CB Marbles is.....

Now I would suspect this has a lot to do with quality. Now how do you determine "quality"? I have heard people say that parents mean nothing. I personally don't believe this for a second.

Look at BDs. F1s are nuts. Some F2s are so nice people don't even believe they're pure. Now if it does NOT matter the parents then why does the quality continue to improve? Why hasn't some out of this world pup popped up that is the same quality from 2 average parents?

Now I understand typical Marbles run what? $250-$300? Do people want run of the mill typical? NO. They want quality.

I'm 5 digits deep in my Marble collection. My prized Marbles cost me black ray money. Heck I bet I could have gotten a BD for the price I payed for my favorite big girl. Now is it fair to charge average price? Sure it is... FOR THE BUYER. For the seller it's hard to swallow.

I have yet to see anyone selling black rays for 20% the cost of parents, yet I'm under the assumption this is what I'm expected to do. Obviously this would push me to black rays over Marbles as judging by some of the #s it would seem very foolish to continue with the Marblism, despite finally achieving the goal of making high quality Marbles available in multiple bloodlines to the hobbyists here on this site.

I'd like to recoop some of my investment and at least get these guys to kick in a bit on bills (like the $360/mo elec or the 17K gallons/mo of water). I'm not trying to get rich here or supplement my income, but rather meet at fairgrounds with fellow hobbyists. I'd like to continue this project as it's proved to be one of the most difficult yet rewarding endevours I've ever set out on. I need to be able to move pups to free up space yet I need to get enough out of them that the whole equasion is justifiable, for if it is NOT justifyable then I'll likely set my sights somewhere else and start heading in that general direction.

My Marble breeding project is finally underway. I have 2 big females preggo. Saw confirmed movement last night on my prized big girl. Saw movement in the other female the minute she went in the 750. The father of these pups is now down with a buddy trying to knock up his tough cookie "Scarlette" my first Marble. I have a juvie male that's been dancing with a female for over a month now. Not enough movement there to confirm but likely. He will be seperated with the female that recently gave birth to the pup I have in the classifieds. So, now that the last 4 years is finally starting to show some reward it seems the pricing debate is inevetable.

I would like to hear from fellow raykeepers. Most of you have Marbles, I would dearly like to hear your input.

So.... What to YOU people think?????



I urge you to go ahead and throw your thoughts out there, and I appreciate taking the time to reply. Thank you.

 

[digginrays]

my experience in marbles( having bred 6 or so litters with 3 females currently preganant) is they are worth 250-300 each as pups.i am one who really doesnt believe too much in parent participation in handing down the appearance gene.i dont think my largest female is all that beautiful but yet she spits out some of the most beautiful pups you've ever seen.granted 90% of buyers want to see the parents, really i believe it boils down to the particular animal you are selling.if the pup is pretty with ugly parents, does it lessen the value?..heck no! the buyer is buying the pup, not the parent. my 2 cents...and i love my marbles just as much as black rays..

 

[earthstudent]

Well, I think like you have mentioned, the price will definitely change with "quality"

So, me as a buyer would be looking at it very comparatively with other things available and of course my own personal bias preferences would play a part in what I would pay for a specific animal.

Break it down. We are talking about a Motoro no matter how you look at it. It is just a fancy morph of a Motoro like a BD is to a Leo. Lets just say Motoros generally go for $100-$200 depending. We will say average $150 just to keep the numbers simple, even though you can find them half that cost.

A Marble would be more prized obviously but how much is the question? Well looking a Leos as a reference, we see the average Leo is what about $1000-$1500? What does the average BD go for? About $3000+? So basically twice the cost of a regular Leo and up. And the price there still fluctuates from ray to ray.

So I would guess that the average Marble would be about what you said $250-$300 and nice Marbles would be $300-$400 and exceptional Marbles might fetch a price of $400-possibly up to $600 with some buyers.

Now with that said, I still think personal preference will play a huge part in what a person is willing to pay for a given ray. I have seem some "regular" Motoros that looked way better than some Marbles I have seen and I have seen some Marbles that looked way more stunning that many Leos I have seen. Does that mean that I would pay a Leo price for that stunning Marble? No, not me personally but I honestly have a hard time justifying the price of some Leos and definitely have a hard time justifying the prices of some BD, when I often could not tell you a BD form a regular Leo.

I don't have much ray experience and could be WAY off here but this is just my thoughts on the subject. And I hope it is not entirely worthless.

 

[DavidW]

Prices are based on desirability and also on rareness.
I think the price of Motoros is fairly stable as they have never been rare or on a tough quota, as they come from Brazil Peru and Colombia ( etc) whereas black rays were on a strict limited quota and only from some rivers in Brazil. ( when I started, before quotas, wild caught leos etc were $45 each , regardless of size and no-one wanted them! only shipping costs made them more or less expensive) However, the price for Blacks has fallen back somewhat and continues to fall as they are bred more and more.
Each take the same time and resources to breed. Neither is particularly harder than the other to get to breed. It just takes time and patience, as you have found out
So....basically, the price is whatever you set, whatever you need to charge, and the price anyone is prepared to pay....kind of like Art!

 

[Piscine]

So....basically, the price is whatever you set, whatever you need to charge, and the price anyone is prepared to pay....kind of like Art!

Damn right.... 110%

 

[HULON]

my experience in marbles( having bred 6 or so litters with 3 females currently preganant) is they are worth 250-300 each as pups.i am one who really doesnt believe too much in parent participation in handing down the appearance gene.i dont think my largest female is all that beautiful but yet she spits out some of the most beautiful pups you've ever seen.granted 90% of buyers want to see the parents, really i believe it boils down to the particular animal you are selling.if the pup is pretty with ugly parents, does it lessen the value?..heck no! the buyer is buying the pup, not the parent. my 2 cents...and i love my marbles just as much as black rays..

Prices are based on desirability and also on rareness.
I think the price of Motoros is fairly stable as they have never been rare or on a tough quota, as they come from Brazil Peru and Colombia ( etc) whereas black rays were on a strict limited quota and only from some rivers in Brazil. ( when I started, before quotas, wild caught leos etc were $45 each , regardless of size and no-one wanted them! only shipping costs made them more or less expensive) However, the price for Blacks has fallen back somewhat and continues to fall as they are bred more and more.
Each take the same time and resources to breed. Neither is particularly harder than the other to get to breed. It just takes time and patience, as you have found out
So....basically, the price is whatever you set, whatever you need to charge, and the price anyone is prepared to pay....kind of like Art!

Far as i'm concerned both these guys hit the nail on the head ...If you have to get a certain amount fot your time and trouble don't budge on a low baller the fish will sell in time ....Me personally what ever i am into buying wether it be a tank or a fish i NEVER ask somone to come down on price the person selling feels that their product whatever they are selling is worth so much and that's that if i am not willing to pay then i just don't comment ...To me it's rather insulting when someone asks if that's my best price "OF COARSE IT IS DUMMY THAT'S WHY I AM ASKEN THIS MUCH"That's all i am sayin DB junkie..If they don't like your price down the road for them

 

[jcardona1]

I love marbles, they're some of my favorite rays. I'd take a nice marble over a Leo any day, as I feel a marble has more 'wow' factor that a big black ray with a few scattered white specks (BDs are a whole different story though ) With that said, marbles are very common. It's not that difficult to find a good quality marble. IMO, no marble is worth $1k. If I was really into marbles, the most I'd drop on a good quality specimen would be $500-600, and he would have to be top quality for that price.

 

[FishDog]

$250 to $300 for a pup is a good price. Even with exceptional parents you can still end up with an average marble. Jimr proved this to me as I got one exceptional and one average marble from his pair. Now if the marble is larger than pup status and has developed really nice markings then the price goes up.

 

[DB junkie]

To me the whole subject is comical.

Is there other animals out there that truley have no traces of parental genes to them? I find the thought alone VERY hard to wrap my mind around. DNA? That's not relevant.... lol. Genes are genes. Not many people are gonna argue that genes are irrelevant. Parents of a ray mean more to me then what the ray currently looks like. Why? cause I KNOW it's gonna change.

I like to think I have just as much experience with Marbles as anyone. I've owned many. Bred them, watched them grow, watched them die. I've watched ugly ducklings turn into swans and even witnessed the opposite, which VERY few people even thought possible. I've raised several of them for several years and learned a lot from it.

I guess time will tell on the whole parents playing a role in what the ray looks like. I can see parental traits in the rays I breed very quickly. The last pup carries identical spotting of the mother, who carries a Marble pattern I'm not sure I've ever seen before. A lack of dots from the spiracles forward. Guess what? Pup is identical. I personally can't wait for a few years from now as I think we will be learning a lot watching these CBs rays evolve and change.

Marbles change.... That's a fact. I wouldn't ever judge one by current appearence. Many get ugly with age. Ever thought that's why we see such beautiful pups from less then stellar parents? Maybe cause in the long run they will end up loosing the pattern just like the genes that were handed to them tell them to do. Not all Marbles loose thier patterns. Now wouldn't that play a part in the value of them?

Max size is another good point..... Wouldn't the pup of a 3' 6 year old ray tend to grow larger then the pup of a 18" 12 year old ray? Is one more desireable then the other? To me, since I enjoy rays in tanks over ponds, the answer is yes, I'd gladly pay more for a smaller max size.

I'd just like to say that what I think is absolutely out of the equasion when it does come down to pricing. Obviously I love Marbles. So much that I'm willing to pay more for Marbles then the majority of MFK. Without the "I don't care what they cost" attitude I wouldn't have the collection I do, but I set out on a mission to amass an insane collection of Marbles and make the higher grade we usually only see pics of available to the community here. I can't do this alone. (hint hint Diggin) I need help from other Marble conessuers so we can keep the genepool large. I figure what better way to get on the same page as the others then to start a thread like this and exchange ideas, views, beliefs, and experiences.

Maybe my views and opinions will change. Maybe others' will. Trials and tribulations can sometimes lead to narrowmindedness, and that can be frustrating.

To me the funniest thing about all this is who gets to take it in the shorts? I do!!!! I paid the piper, I lined people's pockets paying 4 digits for several of what I consider to be some of the nicest Marbles offered for sale on this site since I became a member. I thought that alone was reason to charge a lil more but I guess in the long run it may not matter.

Guess what? I could care less. I love these animals and I'd do it again. I've always been in it for the hobby and not the $. I just hope that these lil buggers are appreciated as much by other hobbyists as they are by me. Why did I pay such stupid money for these things you may be asking yourself..... Well the answer is simple. So you won't have to. So you can enjoy these creatures for what they SHOULD cost. NOT what they cost me. The reason for this thread is to figure out that "Should". Maybe that "should" has already been established by breeders before me like Diggin, Pat, Brad, and JimR. If so I'm jealous, as I think I may have overpaid ALOT. Oh well I did it for the nookie. Nookie=Marblism=The love for such an incredibly beautiful animal when weighed against it's pricetag, as I feel when factoring in beauty compared to cost of animal, feeding and housing requirements Marbles are VERY tough to beat.

Thanks for the replies guys....

 

[digginrays]

i paid $800 for my largest female 2 years ago.not something i've told many people about..until now..lol and she's really not all that purdy.
and for the record, i love marbles too just not quite as much as blackies.when freinds come over, i am always asked why i waste my time with marbles when i have 3 black species breeding..obviously, it isn't for the money!