Zebra Obliquidens & Kenyi Hybrid?

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Chris,

Might I suggest you just simply let them carry to term? I mean I've had to strip by accident only a handful of times really. If you have an isolation tank, let the females hold for a good 2 weeks, and about 14-15 days into it, net them and move them. You'll find many times, females could just spit the brood right in your net, and if not, let them sit in isolation. No threat and you'll get higher fry survival rates. I'm not sure if you said or not, but I mean, are you commercial breeding or something? I don't want to come off mean or rude, but why the rush? If I have females holding and of different species due within the same window, what I've been doing is getting a female out, wait till she spits, and then take her out right away and put the next female in. Females will tend to still hold the brood in the main tank if needed a little beyond when fry are able to free swim. With the listing of males/females you have, you run little risk a male will go after a female again after spitting too soon, and if she's not recovered enough, she should have enough space to take cover.

I'm just not a fan of stripping really. Had some females spook if I netted them too early and eggs weren't done forcing me to tumble, but that's the extent of my "stripping" experience. I personally think it should be for mass commercial breeders, but that's just me.
 
JonV,

I do see where you are coming from, and I have thought about it, but I feel as though the female gets very worn down if she carries to term. I know that I need to beef her up a little after carrying (either to term or just a week), but it seems as though I can get her to spawn quicker again if she doesnt get as worn down from not eating for the whole term. I think with this next female I am going to wait closer to 10 days and see how she is. I do have a wholesaler/retailer that takes fry from me when they reach 2" for straight up cash, so I would like to have a better turnover throughout the year with each female. It could be an extra couple hundred bucks or more throughout the year if I do strip, which is why I do it.

I have bred Yellow Labs this way by letting them hold for one week at 86* and the fry seem to do just great! I know that it is probably different with different species, but I am just going to try trial and error. I hope this next female that is holding will have a few more than 7 babies for me. By the way, those 7 fry are in my homemade tumbler as we speak! Will keep everyone updated. Thanks for the response.

Chris
 
I mean hey it is your tank Chris, I'm just suggesting not to get into that habit, because this is going to force you to have to do this every time, and if you have 40 plus Labs and 25 each of your Lombardoi and Lafasciata's, I think it's a safe bet you have little threat that a female will stay too weak.

Keep in mind, you can't get around the biology of it too. There's a certain window at which a female will spawn, even if you high protein them within limit. The female still has to produce eggs which are only done within a certain time period. I mean it's great to allow recovery from holding and keep them in less stress, no argument on that aspect, but what I think is that if these species are doing this in their natural settings, we probably should let things go as natural as possible. The evolution of this process has been going on in the thousands of years time frame.

Your sheer numbers are in your favor to prevent females from being targeted too soon too Chris, which I have to say, many hobbyists don't keep in these kinds of numbers. That's a big hats off to you for that. You probably will have a very wonderful spread of genes with that many males/females going. It's worth noting in this case, FYI kind of thing, Lafasciata's are known to give extended care time to fry, more so then Mbuna. CF has posted in an article, Lafasciata females have a tendancy to give parental care to fry up to 2 months post spitting.
 
I will definitely have to read up then. I now have 5 females holding...all from today!! I actually caught 3 of them dropping eggs and getting them fertilized! Pretty sweet to watch. JonV, thank you for all the info! I will have to do some more research on the Lafasciata's. Will continue to update!

Chris
 
The last 2 days, I had a couple spawn up a brood myself. I've only had 1 out of 5 times work out, as I tried netting them up too early, and got a net full of eggs, with no tumbler. Finally I waited until the 3rd week to net, bang, got fry. This species from what I've seen, you need to allow extended carrying time, so my next pulls on the two now holding, I'm not even trying to touch them till about mid May
 
I have had this happen in the past with my yellow labs also. If you have a HOB filter, you could always try to place the net (with eggs or wigglers) underneath the flow of water, which will keep the eggs in motion. Thats about all you can do if you dont have a tumbler on hand.
With all the fish I have in my 90, I cant wait till the 3rd week to net. I would either have zero fry because the female would eat the eggs due to getting picked on or a dead female because she was so stubborn that she was going to hold the eggs and she got beat up. I have already experienced both of these. So, when I see that a female is holding I net her right away and place her in a small tank by herself.
I have also tried placing 2 or more that were holding in a smaller tank and they ate their eggs within a day since they were picking on eachother. Right now I have 5 holding, 2 in a divided 10 and 3 in a divided 15 with hiding spaces in each of their "cells". I know its not too convenient and I am working on something better for the holding females. I guess I didnt expect 5 at a time or even that they would be breeding already. I've only had them 1.5 months.
JonV, let me know how your fry turn out. I may have to change my ways!

Chris
 
BigPleco;3050420; said:
I have had this happen in the past with my yellow labs also. If you have a HOB filter, you could always try to place the net (with eggs or wigglers) underneath the flow of water, which will keep the eggs in motion. Thats about all you can do if you dont have a tumbler on hand.
With all the fish I have in my 90, I cant wait till the 3rd week to net. I would either have zero fry because the female would eat the eggs due to getting picked on or a dead female because she was so stubborn that she was going to hold the eggs and she got beat up. I have already experienced both of these. So, when I see that a female is holding I net her right away and place her in a small tank by herself.
I have also tried placing 2 or more that were holding in a smaller tank and they ate their eggs within a day since they were picking on eachother. Right now I have 5 holding, 2 in a divided 10 and 3 in a divided 15 with hiding spaces in each of their "cells". I know its not too convenient and I am working on something better for the holding females. I guess I didnt expect 5 at a time or even that they would be breeding already. I've only had them 1.5 months.
JonV, let me know how your fry turn out. I may have to change my ways!

Chris
Click to expand...

I have had the same problem with holding females, both spitting the eggs early, and also getting killed in the tank trying to defend herself with a mouthful of eggs. I'd rather keep the mom than the fry, myself, and I too am new to the ways of tumbling eggs.

Vics breed small, and you get your best chances at breeding when they are young. For some reason, when they get older they just don't hold as often. You may get bigger spawns out of them at more advanced ages, but they start really early! Don't be suprised to see a holding female in a grow out tank!
 
Chris,

They were BIG piles too, I mean had to be at least a good 30 plus eggs, probably more. I was really down hearted the first couple times until I realized, this species just needs to sit a little longer, and when I read on CF that females give extended care time to fry, I didn't stress netting them up so soon as I do with Mbuna.

Barb, thanks for the follow up. I did finally, after the 5th holding female, (same females, just fifth time I netted) got actual free swimming fry, looks about 30-40ish range. I've now got well over 300 total fry over 6 different species in my 100, and about another 50 or so in my 15 just waiting to get size to go up.

2 of my 3 Lafasciata females I have in the 180 are still holding, spawned this week, the third female is pretty fat and should spawn anytime. I moved 1 pair, male female to the 75 a few weeks ago, low traffic tank, just young small juvie Mbuna, and a young male female pair of Polleni. Funny this is, that was the sub dom male I had of Lafasciata's. You'd think, free of the opression from the dom Lafasciata male, he'd be active on the female, but he's pretty mellow actually.
 
Well, I stripped the other female and got 9 fry. The females are still pretty small which I think is why I am only getting single digit fry numbers. I currently have 10 females that are holding...4 in my divided 15, 2 in my divided 10, and 4 still in the 90 that are hanging low until I come up with a way to get them away from the Kenyi's and other Z.O.'s. I am hoping for well over 100 fry. I just have to grow em up for a few months and then will sell them for $1.25 ea! Hopefully the majority of them make it!

Will be stripping 3 more females that started holding on 4/23 within a week or two. Fry seem to be doing really well. The 6 from the first female are already eating decap brine shrimp. Growing daily!

JonV, let me know how yours turn out! Good luck to you.

Chris
 
One of the two females dumped or got stressed or something Chris. Both had a big fat mouthful, only to see one of them eating today. The other still has a big FAT mouth. I would say something seems really odd to get those kinds of numbers you posted Chris. Even when I pulled my female out after a few weeks, she partially dumped on me, but still had eggs left as I let her go quickly when she spooked...basically a half brood as I lost some of the spawn to her spitting eggs only, she still gave me about 30 free swimmers 10 days later.

To only get like 9 or 10 makes me think maybe the females are spawning very young? Or, someone might be eating up the eggs mid spawn? I have seen this happen not to long ago myself when watching my Lombardoi spawn. Male Flavus sat off the area about 6 inches, waited for the female to start dropping eggs in her dance with the male, and jumped in and ate a few. Maybe if you stripped her in the past, she lost the instinct to hold a larger pile? I am not sure just only I wonder why such a low count. These females have big mouths Chris, I'd expect you to pull a minimum of 35-40 and just get bigger counts as they age.

Still waiting for the third to spawn. She's fairly fat, so she's got eggs, just not much interested to do the deed yet. No fault from the male for trying though LOL. Still even just that one female if that's all I get this month, that brood should be close to 40 plus and sit me really well for Lafasciata's this summer. Already have 35 from that half brood growing out now.
 
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