How Important Is Bio Media?

[Danger_Chicken]

i have to agree that simple sponge filters are more than capable at taking care of bio-filtration. case in point is discus hans setup. the discus is reportedly a very difficult fish to keep & requires very clean water. if you look at hans's filtration setup, all he uses is water dripping on a sponge.

When you say sponge filter I think the little round job in the corner of the tank. Han's is effectively using it like a wetdry, it's just all the media (bio/mech) is sponge. His setup is very simple and very effective.

And with these discus breeding set ups the ph levels are very low.

You quoted the above (by frz) so I associated this remark with Discus Hans - he keeps his discus around 7-7.2 using aged tap water.

I strongly suggest keeping the sponge on top, as this has several positive effects…

Keep in mind I do not use charcoal, Purigen or other porous materials in my Aqua Clears (or elsewhere). I do acknowledge that waste can/will get into the pores and clog them rendering such porous materials less effective…

You’ll have to weigh the pros and cons of each approach and decide which works best for your desired media combination… but for anyone having trouble with bypass in an Aqua Clear HOB, I do suggest at least trying it with the sponge on top…

I have to disagree here unless all you are using is sponge in the AC110 (which I think is fine). I've noticed when I add the bio rings that come with it they trap a lot of crud (over time) on top of the sponge. I'll admit I'm bad about cleaning filters, but the only bypass I've noticed is when the sponge clogs and "lifts" up so the water can flow, which I sometimes use as a pop up timer for "it's time to clean the filter" I do have to commend you for mentioning you don't use the products the other poster does so his results may be different. This is probably the most important thing anyone giving advise should remember - quailify your comments so others can gauge the potenial results on their system, which will most likely be very different. With purgen, the results will be different; the pores in the bags are very small and will clog quickly without a prefilter.

Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat… but not every way is equal in efficiency, practicality, financial investment nor in final result…

As I’ve said multiple times in this thread and elsewhere… We all have the right/freedom to filter our tanks as we wish… But we should not mislead new hobbyists into believing they have to make the same choices we do. Answer their questions honestly and if you don’t honestly know how to do that… let someone who does answer their question……..

Just thought this needed to be said again. Don't answer a question with your ego, no one is the better for it - including you. About 15yrs ago I read a quote on a calendar that said:
First person "I've always done it this way"
Second person "then you've always done it wrong"
I'm not saying that about anyone, only mentioning it because ferquentely I use this statement to check myself and keep an open mind.

solid wastes will liquify and thats where the biological media takes over, neutralizing the toxins. mechanical filtration removes the solids only and the hobbiest removes before they become liquidified and overtax the biological filtration. but if you have massive amounts of biological your system is never overtaxed. thats why wet drys are so good and users hardly ever have to clean the biomedia.the waste gets liquified before it has a chance to clog and the massive BB can deal with the toxins... people get into trouble when there isnt enough biological to deal with the toxins (maybe they forget a cleaning or accidently crash their system, dead fish etc). thats why I would always suggest more biomedia over mechanical because most people forget or get lazy and run into trouble. If you are diligent and are constantly removing the waste before it has a chance to liquify then your setup will be fine, but if your really overstocked like i am its best to be safe. I let the bacteria do the work for me.

have you ever used a canister filter? I dont feel that I am giving bad advise. When I started keeping africans over 15 years ago I used to jack around with my canisters at least monthly and I think it did more harm than good. Most people you talk to or at least I have talked to, maybe rinse their efimech every 6 months if even that. efi mech is basically biomedia as is everything inside the canister. Some people dont even run sponges or prefilter pads in them and they still work great. As long as you do regular water changes, there is no way getting around that, you will be fine. Water changes remove more than just nitrates, they remove liquified fish waste,,, think urine. there are protiens and all kinds of stuff in fish water. Even the finest floss wont remove that. Ill take a canister filled with ceramic rings over one filled with sponges, filter floss any day.I bet if you ask around, you will find there are a lot of canister users that dont mess with them every month. maybe we should start a poll

Again I'm bad about cleaning my filters, I down right hate it. However, I think you are leaving out several important factors when suggesting this cleaning routine for canisters. Based on my bad filter cleaning habits and meters connected to my tanks full time, I'm going to try and explain.

First, all of the that solid waste doesn't liquify, or at least not quick enough to be ignored for long periods. If it did we wouldn't have to clean the filters. Next, all the waste builds up in the filter and water and then feeds the BB, just as you suggested. The problem here is all that extra BB, that grows to handle the built up waste in the filter, gives off waste. More decaying organics = more BB = more BB by-product (nitrate). Not just more nitrate but a faster rate of nitrate production. Also, this liquified waste or DOC's still decompose producing acids that lower your PH. The dirtier your filter the more WC's have to be done. As soon as you do a WC the water runs through the filter and the now less-saturated water disolves more waste and your freshly changed water is dirty again. You can some what gauge TDS by closely monitoring your PH. Cleaing my filters has a much more profound effect on my PH than WC. I'm reffering to a heavly stocked tank that gets 30% WC a day (when the filters are dirty), 10% a day for a month after they are cleaned. I try to clean them every 3 months, but not because I think that's all they need, but becuase I'm lazy and that's as long as I can let it go without upping the WC's. As NC has said numerous times the bio media clogs faster when used as mech media and becomes useless as bio media. It may work to a point but it's not efficient and there are other consequences to this approach.

 

[TheFishJunky]

interesting read.......makes you wonder?

 

[tcarswell]

One of the best threads since ive been here actually.

 

[turtlesrock]

very nice thread.. i thi k that BIO media is important but people over exagerate. a simple AC sponge has alot of surface area.. even i overdo my BIO. i have a 100 gallon tank with 3 filters on it.. heres the media thats in them!!

175gph HOB
fluval foam (for mechanical)
possibly adding CARBON

175gph HOB
same as above
​

so my HOB's make up 50% of my mechanical filtration with is important to me!
heres my third filter!

20gal sump- w/ 600gph pump
1st layer= course pads
2nd layer= filter wool
3rd layer= 460 cut up straws (for BIO)
4th layer= more straw
5th layer= sponge
then it passes by a submerible heater, then it goes to the oump! i have 6 layers/chambers of filtration!!
​

 

[jimolds8862]

ok.k I have 2 power head's 1 hob. on a 185 gal tank everything is just fine. o I have 1 14'' o 4 jack's 5 convicts & 2 dragon fish.

 

[tcarswell]

I do not expect me sharing my understanding is going to make any revolutionary changes in the way people in general filter their tanks… But I do hope it helps a few people think their filtration through from a slightly different perspective. I feel that the filter/media manufacturers have fuels a vast misunderstanding in “bio needs” and are making a fortune from it.

But it did start a revolution! IMO there are a lot less bio braggers/MORE MORE MORE FILTRATION!!!! guys around and more sensible dialogue in setup and filtration due mostly to this thread.

 

[Burbotman]

I have very much enjoyed reading the information on this thread. With the bio discussion here it is interesting how on most of the Fluval FX5 vs Ehiem 2080 threads the Fluval is dissed because of the amount of foam vs the bio on the Ehiem.

I always want to have more than enough filtraion but am starting to ask if the $700 I have spent on filtration for my 165G was really needed.

 

[Burbotman]

I think one of the questions with all this, is How do you know if you have enough filtration?

Is it when you always have 0 Ammonia and Nitrite? If it is all being converted to Nitrate then what more could additional filtration add from a bio point to your tank? (I am asking because I do not know)

After this point would it not come down to WC's for dealing with the Nitrates?

 

[Burbotman]

I think one of the questions with all this, is How do you know if you have enough filtration?

Is it when you always have 0 Ammonia and Nitrite? If it is all being converted to Nitrate then what more could additional filtration add from a bio point to your tank? (I am asking because I do not know)

After this point would it not come down to WC's for dealing with the Nitrates?

My Example, had a 120g with 2 fluval 405s- fully cycled
Upgragded to 165G, added a 2217 and an old AC 110g, all good but felt need more?? Upgraded the 2 405's to a FX5. Still all good but was asking myself if I needed to scrap the 2217 for a 2080? Why, main reason was looking at this site and feeling underfiltered even though all my readings have been great. Do have a fairly heavy stock load but..

Good discussion, has me rethinking things.

 

[vfc]

"After this point would it not come down to WC's for dealing with the Nitrates? "

That is the #1 limiting factor to how many fish you can keep in an aquarium.

BTW - I think some of the folks who constantly say there is no such thing as over-filtration and talk about their multiple FX5's, etc., are actually aquarium shop owners or filter company representatives. Benefits to them are obvious.