Keyhole biotope

[Tripping Willow 91]

Are you dead set on the Keyholes? My water tends to be on the hard side too in my locale. For me I researched fish that would do better in the water I have instead of chasing water parameters. Here in SW FL we have farm raised Honduran Red Points & Rainbow Cichlids for example that are raised and bred in hard water. Might be better for you & the fish to look at something more suitable for your water supply so you don't have to constantly tinker with parameters.

No I'm not dead set on keyholes. I'm drawn towards their disk like shape and peaceful nature, I thought they'd be an ideal candidate for my setup if they can do well in hard water but if not I will certainly look at another species.

I really like severum, again because of their disk type shape but I don't think my tank is large enough to keep even the smallest species of sev? And even if it were large enough i don't think severum will do to great in my hard water either?

I had originally looked at keeping a harem of sajica as they like most centrals prefer harder water but I was steered away from them as I discovered they can be very harsh on each other when breeding and even when keeping a mated pair the male will often kill the female. I'm not really to keen on any of the other smaller CA cichlids.

My standby plan is one stanzzz suggested in a previous thread, a group of meeki with some tails. They're not my favourite looking cichlid but I think they'll suit my water and the scape I want to create

 

[Tripping Willow 91]

yeah, I'm sorry I missed that part in skimming through your original post. Your TDS is more likely close to our area.

You could still keep C. aenus in your tap water. I kept them alive and well for 17-20 years, even after not providing the best conditions for the first 15 years. They are pretty hardy. I can't comment on the cardinal tetras since I don't know how successful folks in my area are able to keep them long term.

As for cichlids, Rainbow cichlids (Herotilapia multispinosa) are really peaceful and would do well for a cichlid beginner. If you want to do a biotope with them.

The Central Scene Issue 3

North & Central American cichlid keeping

issuu.com

Yes I've kept c.aenus before and bred them without issue, they seemed to do very well in my water. I've never kept cardinals myself but I know someone local to me that has done and says he's not had any issues at all with them, can't comment on how long he's had them though.

I've looked at the rainbows but for some reason they just don't do it for me, although I do find the red eye variety more appealing. Love Lee Nuttalls scapes though, definitely be going to his vids for inspiration when putting mine together

 

[duanes]

I agree with the others that suggest getting a cichlid more attuned to your water conditions.
Keyholes, oscars, Amazonian Geo's all seem to be prone to HITH and other maladies, when forced to abide hard water conditions after a few years.
The Central Americans suggested would be better options for your water.
And the size tank is quite small, so choose your Centrals wisely (smaller is better)
A couple other Centrals agreeable to your tap water not mentioned above.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/nanoluteus/.highres/053_zps2cb500d0.jpg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

Amatitlania nanoluteus above
Amatitlania myrnae below (female is the smaller one)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/cutteri/septemfasciatus/.highres/IMG_4265_zpsgou4q6fe.jpg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

Proper biotope tankmate could be Central American tetras or live bearers

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/zoogono/sailfin/.highres/IMG_1281_zps49523db1.jpg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

Sailfin mollies above
swordtails below

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/zoogono/swordtails/.highres/IMG_8005_zpsacce4374.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

A myrnae with a sword tank mate below

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/cutteri/septemfasciatus/female/.highres/IMG_3967_zpsa9jfmuxi.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

 

[Tripping Willow 91]

I agree with the others that suggest getting a cichlid more attuned to your water conditions.
Keyholes, oscars, Amazonian Geo's all seem to be prone to HITH and other maladies, when forced to abide hard water conditions after a few years.
The Central Americans suggested would be better options for your water.
And the size tank is quite small, so choose your Centrals wisely (smaller is better)
A couple other Centrals agreeable to your tap water not mentioned above.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/nanoluteus/.highres/053_zps2cb500d0.jpg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

Amatitlania nanoluteus above
Amatitlania myrnae below (female is the smaller one)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/cutteri/septemfasciatus/.highres/IMG_4265_zpsgou4q6fe.jpg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

Proper biotope tankmate could be Central American tetras or live bearers

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/zoogono/sailfin/.highres/IMG_1281_zps49523db1.jpg?width=450&height=278&crop=fill

Sailfin mollies above
swordtails below

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/zoogono/swordtails/.highres/IMG_8005_zpsacce4374.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

A myrnae with a sword tank mate below

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i97/dstuer/cutteri/septemfasciatus/female/.highres/IMG_3967_zpsa9jfmuxi.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

With the cichlids you mention above would they fair well in small groups or would all hell descend once a pair or pairs were to form? Any suggestions for a larger lone cichlid with some non cichlid tank mates. Would a rotkeil sev be a bad idea for my tank and water?

 

[duanes]

The cichlids I mention may do well as a trio or quartet in that limited space, but if a pair decides to spawn, the 3rd or 4th wheel may be in trouble.
As for severums, they come from a similar water type as keyholes, and tend to develop similar maladies in mineral rich high pH water after a few years.
If you can keep nitrates in the low range of 0 to 5ppm with frequent water changes, you may beat the odds.
I see a lot of posts of people saying my severums are doing well in high pH water after 6 months or a year.
But the maladies brought on with that water are chronic, and may take a year or 2 to develop.

Catch location water parameters for severum usually looks like this

 

[cmsbthebest]

The cichlids I mention may do well as a trio or quartet in that limited space, but if a pair decides to spawn, the 3rd or 4th wheel may be in trouble.
As for severums, they come from a similar water type as keyholes, and tend to develop similar maladies in mineral rich high pH water after a few years.
If you can keep nitrates in the low range of 0 to 5ppm with frequent water changes, you may beat the odds.
I see a lot of posts of people saying my severums are doing well in high pH water after 6 months or a year.
But the maladies brought on with that water are chronic, and may take a year or 2 to develop.

Catch location water parameters for severum usually looks like this
View attachment 1481582

View attachment 1481589

Considering how widespread H.efasciatus is, I would imagine they are found in all sorts of water conditions, not just low pH soft waters. Probably a different story for some of the more uncommon Severum such as H.severus and H.liberfer. Also, most H.efasciatus have been bred for many decades in fish farms and are probably far removed from wild stock. I wouldn't be too concerned with keeping a common Green Severum in hard water.

However its a moot point for this discussion, I would think a 63 gallon is too small for a Severum long term. My largest is pushing 10 inches and I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping it in even a 75 (although my two smaller Severum that are around 7.5 inches would be fine in one).

 

[Tripping Willow 91]

The cichlids I mention may do well as a trio or quartet in that limited space, but if a pair decides to spawn, the 3rd or 4th wheel may be in trouble.
As for severums, they come from a similar water type as keyholes, and tend to develop similar maladies in mineral rich high pH water after a few years.
If you can keep nitrates in the low range of 0 to 5ppm with frequent water changes, you may beat the odds.
I see a lot of posts of people saying my severums are doing well in high pH water after 6 months or a year.
But the maladies brought on with that water are chronic, and may take a year or 2 to develop.

Catch location water parameters for severum usually looks like this
View attachment 1481582

View attachment 1481589

Damn that's a long way from what I'd be keeping them in. Although just looking online at my local water report they are getting it a bit softer than what my API kit makes. Taking their averages they're getting the pH at 7.5 and a total hardness of 17dh, I'm guessing their numbers are going to be closer than what my API kit is telling me? Although from the numbers you've produced it looks like I'm still miles from what a rotkeil would need

 

[duanes]

However its a moot point for this discussion, I would think a 63 gallon is too small for a Severum long term. My largest is pushing 10 inches and I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping it in even a 75 (although my two smaller Severum that are around 7.5 inches would be fine in one).

I also consider a 63 gal tank not enough space for any cichlid that gets over 6.5".
The thing about hard, high pH water is not about the the cichlid itself adapting to it..
Its that fish from soft, mineral poor water have not had to evolve and develop immunity over millennia to bacteria found in mineral rich water.
The bacteria that cause common maladies of these cichlids like HITH, and intestinal bloat causing disease, thrive in 7.5 to 8.5 pH, and mineral rich conditions, and also tend to bloom in high nitrate water.
So after a couple years in hard water, especially where water changes allow nitrate levels of 20ppm or more to creep up become a soup these cichlids are susceptible to.
I believe this is why (even after a century of extensive aquarium breeding) we see so many oscars with HITH.
They are fine as cute little buggers where a once a week water change worked even in high pH water.
But as the oscars grow, and when that once a week water change is insufficient, so nitrates soar to 20 ppm or higher, in combination with out of the nature realm these fish have evolved to inhabit, that these chronic diseases gradually sneak in.

An Amatitlania from the calcium rich waters of Central America, has evolved over millions of years to resist these pathogens.

 

[Tripping Willow 91]

Considering how widespread H.efasciatus is, I would imagine they are found in all sorts of water conditions, not just low pH soft waters. Probably a different story for some of the more uncommon Severum such as H.severus and H.liberfer. Also, most H.efasciatus have been bred for many decades in fish farms and are probably far removed from wild stock. I wouldn't be too concerned with keeping a common Green Severum in hard water.

However its a moot point for this discussion, I would think a 63 gallon is too small for a Severum long term. My largest is pushing 10 inches and I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping it in even a 75 (although my two smaller Severum that are around 7.5 inches would be fine in one).

It's heros rotkeil that I was looking into as I believe this is the smallest species, maxing out at 8" and I assume females would be slightly smaller? Do you think a lone (female?) rotkeil would be too large for my tank?

 

[cmsbthebest]

I also consider a 63 gal tank not enough space for any cichlid that gets over 6.5".
The thing about hard, high pH water is not about the the cichlid itself adapting to it..
Its that fish from soft, mineral poor water have not had to evolve and develop immunity over millennia to bacteria found in mineral rich water.
The bacteria that cause common maladies of these cichlids like HITH, and intestinal bloat causing disease, thrive in 7.5 to 8.5 pH, and mineral rich conditions, and also tend to bloom in high nitrate water.
So after a couple years in hard water, especially where water changes allow nitrate levels of 20ppm or more to creep up become a soup these cichlids are susceptible to.
I believe this is why (even after a century of extensive aquarium breeding) we see so many oscars with HITH.
They are fine as cute little buggers where a once a week water change worked even in high pH water.
But as the oscars grow, and when that once a week water change is insufficient, so nitrates soar to 20 ppm or higher, in combination with out of the nature realm these fish have evolved to inhabit, that these chronic diseases gradually sneak in.

An Amatitlania from the calcium rich waters of Central America, has evolved over millions of years to resist these pathogens.

I agree that fish are adapted to their local waters, which works well for fish with limited ranges. For wide ranging species such as efasciatus, you will see variations in habitat, with certain populations adapted to living in soft water, and other adapted to living in harder waters. After decades of being bred in fish farms, these populations are bred together, muddying genetics and adaptations from the individual populations for survival in their native waters. There is also going to be a bit of "natural" selection occuring where after multiple generations of breeding at fish farms, fish that are best suited to survive in the more neutral or harder waters are more likely to survive.

I think overall this muddying of genetics and "natural" selection has led to available H.efasciatus that are overall more resilient to harder water conditions than some of the wild populations.

Interesting note about Oscars, is that they are widespread in Florida, especially in South Florida (Miami-Dade, Palm Counties) and the everglades [Source: https://www.fws.gov/fisheries/ans/erss/uncertainrisk/ERSS-Astronotus-ocellatus-final-July2018.pdf]. Many water sources in these areas tend to have neutral to high (8.0+) pH, yet Oscars are very prevalent (due to hobbyist releases and escape from fish farms). This indicates that "domestic" Oscars are very adaptable to high pH environments as long as water quality remains good. My thought would be that "domestic" Oscars are so prone to HITH because they are incredibly messy fish that are way too common in the hobby, commonly being in the possession of hobbyist who do not keep nitrates (which should always be 20 ppm or less) in check.

Again though, I completely agree that this is the case with wild caught fish, fish that are close descendants of wild caught fish, and fish that have small geographic ranges. I wouldn't recommend taking a wild caught Discus from low pH blackwaters in putting it in a high pH aquarium.